2021 Delivery Date?
11-20-2020, 07:45 PM
#1516
Burning Brakes
11-20-2020, 08:05 PM
#1517
For people who want a nice long read for the weekend, this is the response I just got from CARB after emailing them earlier asking WTF. Not much new here.
Thank you for your message,
CARB is prohibited from releasing any specific confidential manufacturer information prior to vehicle certification. We do however encourage good communication with the manufacturer and their dealerships and expect manufacturers to truthfully inform customers of planned delivery dates and the status of their requests for certification of specific models of vehicles. In addition, we can provide you with the following general information:
CARB staff is working remotely as well as physically in our laboratory, resulting in little to no delays in normal processing time for routine vehicle certifications. Vehicles from certain manufacturers may be subject to additional screening requirements based on the past accuracy of their annual submittals, along with the complexity of their emissions control systems. Even in these cases, CARB staff works closely with manufacturers to ensure certification moves forward as quickly as possible.
CARB publicly posts certification approvals, or Executive Orders, typically within 24-48 hours of their approval. Manufacturers typically receive their copies in advance of this posting.
Any time after the approval, or signing of the Executive Order, the manufacturer is free to release the vehicle to their customer. There is no additional waiting period imposed.
Manufacturers are at all times apprised of the status of their submittals with CARB staff. Manufacturers are free to release this information to the public and add any additional information they may choose to share about their in-house timeline, and to detail pending efforts to fulfill California and US certification requirements.
Until a vehicle is officially certified, it is illegal to actually complete a vehicle sale. Prior to certification, any deposits, waiting list reservations, or other monetary guarantees must be fully and immediately refundable upon demand. California law prohibits any action that effects a “sale” prior to the certification of the vehicle. There are significant penalties involved for any violation of this law, even if unintentional and or self-reported.
We hope this helps you understand the process and our responsibilities to both ensure compliance with California law and protect confidential business information. Please feel free to contact us at the above email should you require further assistance or need additional information.
CARB is prohibited from releasing any specific confidential manufacturer information prior to vehicle certification. We do however encourage good communication with the manufacturer and their dealerships and expect manufacturers to truthfully inform customers of planned delivery dates and the status of their requests for certification of specific models of vehicles. In addition, we can provide you with the following general information:
CARB staff is working remotely as well as physically in our laboratory, resulting in little to no delays in normal processing time for routine vehicle certifications. Vehicles from certain manufacturers may be subject to additional screening requirements based on the past accuracy of their annual submittals, along with the complexity of their emissions control systems. Even in these cases, CARB staff works closely with manufacturers to ensure certification moves forward as quickly as possible.
CARB publicly posts certification approvals, or Executive Orders, typically within 24-48 hours of their approval. Manufacturers typically receive their copies in advance of this posting.
Any time after the approval, or signing of the Executive Order, the manufacturer is free to release the vehicle to their customer. There is no additional waiting period imposed.
Manufacturers are at all times apprised of the status of their submittals with CARB staff. Manufacturers are free to release this information to the public and add any additional information they may choose to share about their in-house timeline, and to detail pending efforts to fulfill California and US certification requirements.
Until a vehicle is officially certified, it is illegal to actually complete a vehicle sale. Prior to certification, any deposits, waiting list reservations, or other monetary guarantees must be fully and immediately refundable upon demand. California law prohibits any action that effects a “sale” prior to the certification of the vehicle. There are significant penalties involved for any violation of this law, even if unintentional and or self-reported.
We hope this helps you understand the process and our responsibilities to both ensure compliance with California law and protect confidential business information. Please feel free to contact us at the above email should you require further assistance or need additional information.
11-20-2020, 08:17 PM
#1518
Rennlist Member
No. I live in a carb state (ct) and am delighted to have the benefit of reduced emissions, no matter how it might adversely affect the performance of my 992TTS or delay its delivery.
Apparently, given your views, you should move out of California now, rather than allowing EXISTING state rules to intrude on your right to own a car which violates the standards which your elected government (and their appointed experts) have developed and applied.
Why not register (and keep) your car in a non-CARB state so you and your car’s emissions can adversely impact health and mortality there?
To each their own - but why complain about the rules in the place you have knowingly chosen to live - whether or not you care about how our shared environment affects us collectively and will affect the health of your and others’ children or others you care about?
i myself am very happy owning a carb-compliant car which I hope will in the future enable PAG to continue to offer ice or ice-hybrid cars that have superb performance.
Apparently, given your views, you should move out of California now, rather than allowing EXISTING state rules to intrude on your right to own a car which violates the standards which your elected government (and their appointed experts) have developed and applied.
Why not register (and keep) your car in a non-CARB state so you and your car’s emissions can adversely impact health and mortality there?
To each their own - but why complain about the rules in the place you have knowingly chosen to live - whether or not you care about how our shared environment affects us collectively and will affect the health of your and others’ children or others you care about?
i myself am very happy owning a carb-compliant car which I hope will in the future enable PAG to continue to offer ice or ice-hybrid cars that have superb performance.
11-20-2020, 08:27 PM
#1519
To be fair to peterdouglas the only pompous part of his message was this sentence: "Why not register (and keep) your car in a non-CARB state so you and your car’s emissions can adversely impact health and mortality there?
"
Other than that he's pretty spot on
"
Other than that he's pretty spot on
11-20-2020, 08:36 PM
#1520
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Man this thread has gone downhill fast. Enjoy your cars people.
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11-20-2020, 09:01 PM
#1521
Rennlist Member
Ditto...December 4th per our SM...It is what it is...but our builds have been sitting for some three months...which bothers us more than anything.
Time to take a rest from the site...getting a little bit too much like all the other rhetoric going on in the good old U.S.A.
Congratulations to all the Non CARB owners...Stay Safe, everyone.
Time to take a rest from the site...getting a little bit too much like all the other rhetoric going on in the good old U.S.A.
Congratulations to all the Non CARB owners...Stay Safe, everyone.
Last edited by LASDSGT770; 11-21-2020 at 10:13 AM.
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markchristenson (11-20-2020)
11-20-2020, 09:38 PM
#1522
Rennlist Member
It’s just a bit of virtue signaling. Don’t need lectures on the site. Lots of emottion here and people do have the right to express their frustrations.
11-20-2020, 11:15 PM
#1523
Hard to believe they've been pushed again-- beyond frustrated at this point.
I continue to be surprised at the "pass" many here seem to want to extend to Porsche on the issue. Is it old fashioned to actually expect a bit of consistent and coordinated communication after agreeing to pay $150k for a car? Would appear that this has been an issue with Pcars in past years. Simple solution - communicate the potential delay back in Sept and tell everyone all at once that it's likely that the cars will be delivered the first week of December. Imagine the number of delighted customers if they arrived in November instead!
I know a lot of guys have suggested that because of the ordering process, we all have more visibility into the production/delivery process with Pcars, and therefore we see delays like this in a more visible manner than if we were buying another brand. But I still do not understand the tremendous number of '21non-Pcar VW brands that have been on sale for months -- makes zero sense to me.
Thanks for listening to the vent -- really frustrated.....
I continue to be surprised at the "pass" many here seem to want to extend to Porsche on the issue. Is it old fashioned to actually expect a bit of consistent and coordinated communication after agreeing to pay $150k for a car? Would appear that this has been an issue with Pcars in past years. Simple solution - communicate the potential delay back in Sept and tell everyone all at once that it's likely that the cars will be delivered the first week of December. Imagine the number of delighted customers if they arrived in November instead!
I know a lot of guys have suggested that because of the ordering process, we all have more visibility into the production/delivery process with Pcars, and therefore we see delays like this in a more visible manner than if we were buying another brand. But I still do not understand the tremendous number of '21non-Pcar VW brands that have been on sale for months -- makes zero sense to me.
Thanks for listening to the vent -- really frustrated.....
11-20-2020, 11:24 PM
#1524
Rennlist Member
Hard to believe they've been pushed again-- beyond frustrated at this point.
I continue to be surprised at the "pass" many here seem to want to extend to Porsche on the issue. Is it old fashioned to actually expect a bit of consistent and coordinated communication after agreeing to pay $150k for a car? Would appear that this has been an issue with Pcars in past years. Simple solution - communicate the potential delay back in Sept and tell everyone all at once that it's likely that the cars will be delivered the first week of December. Imagine the number of delighted customers if they arrived in November instead!
I know a lot of guys have suggested that because of the ordering process, we all have more visibility into the production/delivery process with Pcars, and therefore we see delays like this in a more visible manner than if we were buying another brand. But I still do not understand the tremendous number of '21non-Pcar VW brands that have been on sale for months -- makes zero sense to me.
Thanks for listening to the vent -- really frustrated.....
I continue to be surprised at the "pass" many here seem to want to extend to Porsche on the issue. Is it old fashioned to actually expect a bit of consistent and coordinated communication after agreeing to pay $150k for a car? Would appear that this has been an issue with Pcars in past years. Simple solution - communicate the potential delay back in Sept and tell everyone all at once that it's likely that the cars will be delivered the first week of December. Imagine the number of delighted customers if they arrived in November instead!
I know a lot of guys have suggested that because of the ordering process, we all have more visibility into the production/delivery process with Pcars, and therefore we see delays like this in a more visible manner than if we were buying another brand. But I still do not understand the tremendous number of '21non-Pcar VW brands that have been on sale for months -- makes zero sense to me.
Thanks for listening to the vent -- really frustrated.....
11-20-2020, 11:38 PM
#1525
Just got an email from my SA (the same guy who told me earlier today that lots of cars are getting released) that the EARLIEST date they should communicate to customers is 12/4. He actually forwarded me the PPN email so I have to believe this is legitimate information. The amazing thing is that the entire Porsche lineup is impacted by this (except for previously approved models) including the Taycans which makes me wonder if they are going to look for a secret internal combustion engine that Porsche installed to improve range and 0-60 performance on their flagship EV... oh well, worse things in life, hang in there.
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11-21-2020, 12:36 AM
#1529
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Orange County California
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I'll preface my theory about what us going on by noting that most of California is presently under the most severe Covid-19 status. This would include the locations of any and all CARB offices that might be engaged in the Emissions Certification processes.
.
I'd be willing to bet that there presently isn't anyone reporting to any of the CARB offices. Hence the December 4th "Estimate" by Porsche. There probably isn't anyone showing up at work to process any of the CARB paperwork (E.O.'s) for any vehicles that hadn't already been approved.
.
FWIW, this is what the Sacramento County which is where the State Capitol is located is ruling. This is where CARB Main offices are located. Most of any part of the population centers in California are in similar circumstances and thus under similar if not identical orders::
.
"Health Officer Order
Sacramento County is in the Purple Tier. The Sacramento County Public Health Officer, Dr. Olivia Kasirye, is directing all individuals living in the County to continue to stay at home or at their place of residence and closing certain indoor operations. The Public Health Order has been amended to reflect the California Department of Public Health's face covering mandate and Limited Stay at Home Order, effective November 20, 2020 at 10:00 PM."
.
Here's the website for the above: https://dhs.saccounty.net/PUB/Pages/PUB-Home.aspx
.
I'd be willing to bet that there presently isn't anyone reporting to any of the CARB offices. Hence the December 4th "Estimate" by Porsche. There probably isn't anyone showing up at work to process any of the CARB paperwork (E.O.'s) for any vehicles that hadn't already been approved.
.
FWIW, this is what the Sacramento County which is where the State Capitol is located is ruling. This is where CARB Main offices are located. Most of any part of the population centers in California are in similar circumstances and thus under similar if not identical orders::
.
"Health Officer Order
Sacramento County is in the Purple Tier. The Sacramento County Public Health Officer, Dr. Olivia Kasirye, is directing all individuals living in the County to continue to stay at home or at their place of residence and closing certain indoor operations. The Public Health Order has been amended to reflect the California Department of Public Health's face covering mandate and Limited Stay at Home Order, effective November 20, 2020 at 10:00 PM."
.
Here's the website for the above: https://dhs.saccounty.net/PUB/Pages/PUB-Home.aspx
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11-21-2020, 12:52 AM
#1530
I'll preface my theory about what us going on by noting that most of California is presently under the most severe Covid-19 status. This would include the locations of any and all CARB offices that might be engaged in the Emissions Certification processes.
.
I'd be willing to bet that there presently isn't anyone reporting to any of the CARB offices. Hence the December 4th "Estimate" by Porsche. There probably isn't anyone showing up at work to process any of the CARB paperwork (E.O.'s) for any vehicles that hadn't already been approved.
.
FWIW, this is what the Sacramento County which is where the State Capitol is located is ruling. This is where CARB Main offices are located. Most of any part of the population centers in California are in similar circumstances and thus under similar if not identical orders::
.
"Health Officer Order
Sacramento County is in the Purple Tier. The Sacramento County Public Health Officer, Dr. Olivia Kasirye, is directing all individuals living in the County to continue to stay at home or at their place of residence and closing certain indoor operations. The Public Health Order has been amended to reflect the California Department of Public Health's face covering mandate and Limited Stay at Home Order, effective November 20, 2020 at 10:00 PM."
.
Here's the website for the above: https://dhs.saccounty.net/PUB/Pages/PUB-Home.aspx
.
I'd be willing to bet that there presently isn't anyone reporting to any of the CARB offices. Hence the December 4th "Estimate" by Porsche. There probably isn't anyone showing up at work to process any of the CARB paperwork (E.O.'s) for any vehicles that hadn't already been approved.
.
FWIW, this is what the Sacramento County which is where the State Capitol is located is ruling. This is where CARB Main offices are located. Most of any part of the population centers in California are in similar circumstances and thus under similar if not identical orders::
.
"Health Officer Order
Sacramento County is in the Purple Tier. The Sacramento County Public Health Officer, Dr. Olivia Kasirye, is directing all individuals living in the County to continue to stay at home or at their place of residence and closing certain indoor operations. The Public Health Order has been amended to reflect the California Department of Public Health's face covering mandate and Limited Stay at Home Order, effective November 20, 2020 at 10:00 PM."
.
Here's the website for the above: https://dhs.saccounty.net/PUB/Pages/PUB-Home.aspx