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The Law of Supply and Demand is exactly that, a law. The only ways that a manufacturer can can effect the market is to have supply meet demand, or raise their prices until demand drops meeting their supply. Until and unless they do one of those things, someone is going to make a profit. If they don't raise supply to meet demand, or change pricing then they have no right to begrudge someone making money.
The expectation at my local dealer is they give me a car at MSRP, they buy it back from me a little below MSRP and then re-sell it for MSRP with X,xxx miles.
Umm... You're saying you have a dealer that has a policy of reselling preowned cars at MSRP vs. market if market is higher? I've never heard of such a thing. I need them to put me in line for the next R they're selling... I won't even ask for a full tank of gas.
I know the game at the good guy dealerships. I traded in for MSRP (not below) and they turned round and sold it for market, which is exactly what I'd expect them to do. If a preowned car - for whatever reason - is worth more than MSRP someone's going to make that profit... Either the customer or the dealer. It's just a matter of who.
I consider flippers to be total scumbags and
wish nothing but failure for these people.
Originally Posted by gago1101
Do not disagree, Joe. But the only thing
a flipper does is practice capitalism 101...
Originally Posted by orthojoe
They wouldn't want me because I would be
throwing F bombs and jumping across the
table at the flippers...
Originally Posted by Archimedes
While I agree with the anti flipper sentiment...
Well, I don't agree with the anti-flipper sentiment!
I don't think its rational or justifiable. Let us start
by reading carefully what Benedict14, our resident
Pope at Rennlist, has wisely posted in our forum:
Originally Posted by Benedict14
...I understand the fact that GT cars are treats
for good customers. The question is, should that
be the case? I accept that some cars will be
limited in number purely through complexity,
price or timing. The 918, Club Coupe, etc. The
911R and the GT3 do not fit the mould. They
could have been built in numbers that allowed
anyone who could afford one, to own one.
Allowing Porsche to profit further (it is a publicly
traded company) and customers to remain happy.
Restricting over half of the small number of PTS
911R to "family members" is perceived as hubris.
Porsche have acknowledged publicly that they
pissed off a lot of customers with the 911R. To
make things right, they follow up with the
(rumored) GT3 touring package. Then ....
limit its production. WTF ?
Please excuse that final WTF from our Holy Father.
But to quote another celebrity that also frequently
contributes here on Rennlist (Thomas Paine), 'these
are the times that try men souls'! And the subject of
'flippers', and who is responsible for this phenomenon,
can test a man's soul...especially here on Rennlist!
*
A much less worthy (& unsaintly) Rennlister talked
about how PAG & the 918 VIP Program was, in fact,
creating/aggravating the 'flipper' crisis, which he felt
was a totally self-inflicted wound!
Originally Posted by Z356
***
I just would like to clarify a point here which
I think deserves further examination in our
forum. This particular 911R ordered by the
OP (Targa 75) was allocated in Europe & sold
in Europe. There is no 918 VIP Program
anywhere else other than in the US. Thus,
the allocation for Targa 75's 911R in France
was not obtained via a preferential 918 VIP
Program. Thus, the OP can sell this car at
anytime without any negative consequences
from PAG or Porsche France!
*
The situation is somewhat different in the
US. Here most of the allocated 911R were
'set asides' or reserved, for a limited number
of customers via the 918 VIP Program. In
fact, PCNA referred to it as 'first access':
*
But the fact is that only a select few US customers
that were not members of the 918 VIP Program
ever got an opportunity to order one (e.g. C.J. Ichiban
& Suitcase). The bulk of them went, on a 'first access'
basis, to 918 owners in good standing in the 918 VIP
Program. And that created an enormous problem for
many US dealers, who couldn't get a 911R for their good
& loyal Porsche customers that over the years had invested,
cumulative, at lot more $ in Porsches than a VIP member
had spent buying a 918! In their view, these Porsche
customers were discriminated against by the 918 VIP
Program when it came to an 911R allocation. And this
is true! And, to make matters worse, the resale of these
scarce 911Rs in the US by so-called 'flippers' was now
putting 'salt on the wound'. In dealer's view, many
unworthy 918 VIP customers got the 911R...and these
resales by these 'flippers' proved their point!
But the issue of resales re: 911R is limited to the US
because of these 'unintended consequences' of the
918 VIP Program that was instituted here when PAG/
PCNA were having a hard time getting all the US
allocated 918s sold in our market. Recently, one of
our better connected Rennlisters (Sccchiii) posted
a very interesting thread that deserves our close
attention:
*
As you can read in this thread, the impetus for this
new one year 'hold', or restriction, on selling a 911R allocated via the 918 VIP Program is coming from
US dealers. And PCNA is listening to them & changing
the rules of the 918 VIP Program to accommodate the
many complaints received from their US dealer base.
But I want you to keep this in mind. In the USA,
there are limits to PCNA's ability to prevent any
private individual to do as he/she pleases with a
vehicle he/she has fully paid for & legally owns.
And I doubt that PCNA's lawyers want to test their
ability to uphold this 'one year hold' requirement
in a court of law or in front of a jury...because
they might just lose that case!
A person might need to sell a 911R due to many
things besides making a quick buck as a 'flipper'.
There are many unexpected circumstances that
could come up - an illness, a financial reversal
or a simple 'I don't like driving it so I'll sell it'.
I personally have had conversations on this very
topic with David Donohue, the point contact person
between PCNA & the 918 owners, at Rennsport V.
So I do believe that management at PCNA is aware
of its own limitations. Keep in mind that those buying
cars in the US have 'consumer protection' laws than
are not often found in other markets or jurisdictions.
This is particular true in California. So there are limits
against arbitrary actions or restrictions that PCNA might
place on 911R owners that obtained their allocation via
the 918 VIP Program. However, just the threat of being
socially shunned, or at last resort suspended, from their
cherished VIP status & many privileges might be enough
for PCNA to curb some of the more egregious 'flipping'
episodes that otherwise we might see here in the US
with 911Rs allocated via the 918 VIP Program!
Frankly, Porsche should have anticipated, in face of
the 918 VIP Program as exists only in the US, that
having a Limited Edition 911R of only 991 worldwide
was going to create a problem a majority of their US
customers that were NOT members of the 918 VIP
Program. In my opinion, all they had to do was to
build the 911R in slightly larger numbers (e.g. 991
plus 250= 1241). That would have accommodated
the total possible universe of US 918 VIP Program
buyers (not all ordered a 991R by the way) & leave
reasonable allocation for the rest of us. And there
is a lesson to be learned by Porsche in all of this for
the future. And it is:
"Please take into consideration the expected 'take rate'
from 918 VIP Program on all your future Limited Edition
Porsche models (at least the popular/desirable 911 & 718
derived ones as opposed to Panameras) before setting
final production numbers for each run."
My dos centavos, for what it's worth.
Originally Posted by Z356
... I blame Porsche for creating this artificial
'scarcity' on the 911R that by definition they
knew would incentivize a secondary market
that now all of us have to deal with.
It would not surprise me if many of the so-called
'flippers' at first had no intention of reselling their
911Rs at the time they got their allocations. But
when this artificial scarcity of the supply, combined
with the better-than-expected 911R reviews by the
world's automotive press, created a resale market
where you could double or triple your acquisition
cost on this model, no one should be surprised
that people will respond to the economic incentive
that presented itself through no fault (e.g. market
collusion) on their part!
So let's keep this in perspective. I put the blame for
this 'extravagantly high' secondary market for the 911R
squarely on Porsche's shoulder! Notice how different
it is with another in-demand model...the 991 gt3 RS.
In that case, PAG continued its production way past
what anyone expected - customers, dealers, the press
...probably even PCNA, the importer! And as a result,
the dealer premiums over MSRP have been substantially
curtailed (moderated) & 991 gt3 RS resales are not
(I presume) a concern to you. In this case, PAG
deliberately set about trying to get supply to intersect
with demand...a good thing in my book.
So I am hesitant to blaming anyone that respond to
an enormous economic incentive that was not created
by them...but by Porsche. PAG should be the adult
in the room. They are a reputable sales & marketing
organization. They should have anticipated what
would happen if they limited the number of the 911R
built, especially when they knew how good the product
was going to be & how much a 991 gt model with a
manual transmission would be in demand, especially
in the US market after limiting the 991 gt models to
PDK. Only a cursory review of the up swing in prices
for the .1 & .2 997 gt3 RS would have alerted them
to the demand for such a 911R product. So I would
like reasonable folks here in Rennlist to keep perspective
in this whole topic & assign blame where it's truly
merited!
Eduardo, who can be credited as being the architect of the 918 VIP Program?
Many were involved but within PCNA Andre is credited. I might add that PAG views him very highly because of the increased 918 sales that resulted when program launched. Despite many feeling like he could be the equivalent of a Porsche devil because of the VIP program, I can tell you he is genuinely nice guy and someone I consider a friend. If you ever see him in LA, ATL or at a race sometime....walk over and say hello, he is a very enthusiastic Porsche race fan as well.
Umm... You're saying you have a dealer that has a policy of reselling preowned cars at MSRP vs. market if market is higher? I've never heard of such a thing. I need them to put me in line for the next R they're selling... I won't even ask for a full tank of gas.
I know the game at the good guy dealerships. I traded in for MSRP (not below) and they turned round and sold it for market, which is exactly what I'd expect them to do. If a preowned car - for whatever reason - is worth more than MSRP someone's going to make that profit... Either the customer or the dealer. It's just a matter of who.
It's not just that Dealers have the capital to do that... why would I sell my car at MSRP to a dealer if I could make more directly at market?
At least for members of this forum, it's because the dealers are GATEKEEPERS for ordering a new vehicle. Their ADM profit is a type of economic 'rent'.
When rent is excessive, it usually indicates artificial constraints imposed on the 'real' ones: but it adds little or no social value.
Last edited by Bartleby7334; 06-03-2017 at 10:32 AM.
Reason: Oops typo
Well, I don't agree with the anti-flipper sentiment!
I don't think its rational or justifiable. Let us start
by reading carefully what Benedict14, our resident
Pope at Rennlist, has wisely posted in our forum:
Eduardo, how boring would things be if we were all gentlemen, like you?
There is a reason I was given the nick name "junk yard dog" during my residency. I never took BS from anyone, no matter who it was, and dealt with it in MY way.
I have to admit, I don't understand your post. You are pro flipper, but then you post a bunch of references that blame Porsche for 911R flippers. Are you saying basically "not to hate the player, but hate the game? " Certainly you can understand why people have distaste for people who 'game' a system.
Eduardo, how boring would things be if we were all gentlemen, like you?
There is a reason I was given the nick name "junk yard dog" during my residency. I never took BS from anyone, no matter who it was, and dealt with it in MY way.
I have to admit, I don't understand your post. You are pro flipper, but then you post a bunch of references that blame Porsche for 911R flippers. Are saying basically "not to hate the player, but hate the game? " Certainly you can understand why people have distaste for people who 'game' a system.
Special shout out to the dealer principal(s) who had enough money to buy personal 918(s), obtain R's through the VIP program, and then offer them for sale
through their dealership. Sort of bypassing the 'order book' entirely.
Very Gentlemanly.
Last edited by Bartleby7334; 06-03-2017 at 11:25 AM.
Reason: added sarcastic comment, and had misspelled
Special shout out to the dealer principal(s) who had enough money to buy personal 918(s), obtain R's through the VIP program, and then offer them for sale
through their dealership. Sort of bypassing the 'order book' entirely.
Reminds me of the distaste I had the last time I was in Las Vegas. 3 hour wait for the Bellagio buffet. BUT if you pay an extra $30 per person, you can cut in front of all the other people who were waiting in front of you for a holiday dinner with their families.
You can call it capitalism. You can call it fair game. That also tells me something about your sense of morals and self righteousness.
To people who have a sense of what is fair and decent, it leaves a bad taste in our mouths.
Before someone goes off on a tangent, I am a staunch conservative. I just know how to delineate what is a fair ball game and what isn't.
2. Ok for a buyer to by at MSRP just to flip shortly afterwards?
3. Ok for Porsche to produce in limited numbers?
Isn't #1 meant to avoid #2? Dealers point of view, if anyone is going to profit its them. Why should it be Joe Blow Flipper?
Isn't #3 the real source of the issue? Without that you'd have no #1 and #2.
How do you have a market where there are no ADM's, no incentive to flip for any financial gain, and everyone that wants a car gets one?
There's only one solution right? Who controls that? Pretty obvious no? Porsche is threatening to crack down on an issue they're responsible for?? They say one thing but practice another. Those of you who fall for it are suckers. Telling enthusiasts what they want to hear but still rewarding themselves and their dealers.
Think logically here about this and not emotionally.
Best solution is to not get worked up and don't reward those with your business that don't value it. Whether a company, retailer, etc...
Why is everyone assuming that Porsche is limiting .2GT3 production? Like every manufacturer with multiple models they have limited capacity. Porsche is gearing up for its 992 model and continues building the various 991.2 models.
The problem is not flippers or Porsche limited production. The problem is Porsche is building a very desirable car coveted by trackers (orthojoe) and people like myself who do not track but enjoy a spirited drive. There are just too many people chasing after the car. It is inevitable that there will be those who in order to get one are willing to pay more thereby attracting owners who want to make a buck.
First of, let me say I respect everyone's opinion here. In summary it really boils down to "Capitalism."
If PORSCHE as many have stated produces more or meet the apex of "Demand with Supply", question I now pose to the fellow members is, are we going to be happy that our "limited" GT cars becoming an ordinary car such as Mercedes Benz AMG, where if you have money, you can go to any dealership and get the AMG you want?
In perspective Mercedes Benz in some cases produces supply that beats the demand. As a result the "resale" value suffers. Mercedes Benz AMG wil even go further by creating a Front Wheel Drive AMG just to satisfy the entry level buyers and meet every possible demand.
The original 911R from 1967 were only twenty plus copies. The 2016 911R had 991 copies, that 4,500% more copies from the original 1967 911R.
The 911R is a numbered car, whereas the 991 GT3RS is a limited production car. In both cars resale is running over MSRP although not quite in the same ratio but still over MSRP which is a good thing for those who own these models, agree?
I think PORSCHE did the right thing with the launch of the 991.2 GT3. Not quite the same as the 911R but close to it. Limiting production creates exclusivity, and creating new and similar models satisfies most of the people weren't able to get the preceding model. All I can say is I love the GT cars of PORSCHE.
Just my $0.02.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Last edited by GT3RS-Fan1; 06-03-2017 at 01:12 PM.
Reason: Corrected typo.
06-02-2017, 06:17 PM
They say one thing but practice another. Those of you who fall for it are suckers. Telling enthusiasts what they want to hear but still rewarding themselves and their dealers. 
