tmg57

Semantics, I guess, but I look at the option list for the GT3 and conclude that somebody must think it's a street car!

Mike in CA

I realize my 4 trouble-free seasons of autocrossing a 9A1 C2S with PDK doesn't legitimize my experience with some here, but I do know other owners who have heavily tracked cars identical to my old car without problems.

Beyond that, since we don't know what the specific concern is regarding the delay, any speculation about whether the fix will be something short of what it needs to be is just that, speculation. Call it wishful thinking if you like, but FCOL; I'm confident Porsche engineers can figure out what's needed to upgrade a connecting rod, for example, without having to put it through another year and million miles of testing. Every new car has issues that are discovered in testing and no manufacturer resets the testing clock to zero every time a defect is found.

For those with orders, the delay is a minor inconvenience. For those without orders or little prospect of ever placing one, the gloating I-told-you-so comments I've seen in some posts are unseemly.

tmg57

Mike, your experience is vastly insufficient. You haven't run the Mille Miglia, or the Targa Florio, or anything that would tell us what me must know.

reidry

Lots of folks are tracking and racing PDK Cayman / Cayman S / Cayman R. Granted that's a lower power level, but it tends to say PDK can survive on the track as long as temperatures are managed. I haven't found any discussions of PDK catestrophic faliures.

I've considering picking up a Cayman R as a track car that my wife could drive too.

Firstly, I don't know any specifics about the issue that Porsche is having with GT3 powerplants. My day job is in Engineering. Endurance testing is no doubt the best way to test parts. There are accelerated testing methods, but they all have their compromises.

This is going to be my first Porsche. The GT3 has always been a car you could drive to the track, flog it pretty hard and drive home. I think this is what most of us want, a car that is reliable enough that we can drive it hard and not be sitting on pins and needles waiting for the engine to grenade.

Ryan

Manifold

Not my motive at all. I'm still considering the car, and will continue to scrutinize it until I decide. I want this car to be great (both in test drives and long-term), but won't bury my head in the sand or engage in wishful thinking in order to believe that. Maybe the current issues will be resolved and the car will be fine. Or not. We'll see.

Mike in CA

Understood, Ryan. This will be my first GT3, but my 4th 911. Over a 30 year period I've driven them all hard, on the street and on track, and have never had an engine grenade or fail for any reason. A small sample, to be sure, but it inspires confidence I guess. Just my opinion, but nothing I've read here has me on pins and needle about the reliability of the new car.

I'd actually not seen any "I told you so" comments from you, Manifold, so I wasn't referring to your posts in that regard. For someone who professes interest though, you display an awful lot of skepticism and are considering alternatives that really aren't in the same class, so I have to say it's hard for me to figure out where you're coming from on the car.

I don't think the new GT3 has "issues". A problem was discovered when it should have been discovered, during testing and before the car was released to customers. If you believe a major manufacturer like Porsche won't be able to fix that problem, then your faith in the brand is probably unredeemable and you shouldn't ever consider buying a car from them again. To think that they will be able to address the issue isn't sticking your head in the sand, it's just common sense.

Manifold

LOL on the first part, I know what you mean. But it's because the 991 GT3 isn't quite what I wanted it to be, so that has me considering some rather different options (eg, M3/4). Porsche could easily have made a 991 GT3 that would have been a no-brainer for me, especially at the current price.

As far as my faith in Porsche, I have to admit that I don't like the direction they've gone in various ways, so I'm generally more skeptical about everything they do because of that.

tmg57

Doesn't a new engine need to appear in production vehicles before it can satisfy homologation rules for race series?

MM3.9GT3

The 991 GT3 has a heady 9000 rpm redline, and a new PDK-S with brutally fast shift speeds. Those are the areas of concern, and the 991S has neither the sky high 9000 rpm redline, nor the PDK-S.

911rox

With the greatest of respect Mike, you and others have spent the past twelve months convincing us that the new GT3 is a whole lot different in its drivetrain than the 9A1 based cars. So how can you sit there and now claim that considering your previous car survived 4 seasons, so will the new car??? Your old car didn't run light weight internals, rocker arms, a 9000rpm redline etc etc... I thought it only shared a case and head bolts???

In reality, to date there have been no known rods exiting casings on Carreras that have been brought to light yet claims of two here for the new motor... I'm sorry, you're welcome to continue to be dismissive all you like but that won't change reliability concerns.

And really? Testing isn't that important? If real world testing was't important, car companies wouldn't fly cars all over the world for testing in the first place. Overheating issues should have been identified long ago. If the engine was needed to rev till 9000rpm all day, it should have been designed to run at 9500rpm without breaking out a sweat and the CLs on our 997.2 should have been tested under race conditions with cars on slicks to far exceed anything customers could ever throw at them, rather than becoming youtube sensations for going down the NBR sideways on three wheels.

For me, the reality is that Porsche engineering has become very sloppy with their engineering and testing in recent years! It may be fine for a Toyota Prius that does highway speeds but not a marque renowned for it track ability and being run at warp speed as marketed... My further $0.02...

Macca

I think we have to be a bit careful here. One guy on one forum says rods through cases in recent journo drives. Not what I was told. I think maybe we might have heard of this through the interweb thingy if it had have happened. Dont you think it would be a scandal. EVO, CAR and many magazines now doing big comparo test with the 991 GT3 and even before guys like Harris and Kahn driving them hard in late Aug and early Sept - you think we may have heard something by now if they were throwing rods through casings? Come on? Really? Thrashed at the ring by Timo Kluck and Rohl and throw a rod when being driven at 7/10th on a country road in Germany?

Mmmmm. Something isnt right here.

frayed

It was posted on the interwebs. Must be true.

911rox

Macca, agreed but considering failure stories have come from three to four sources here including yourself and then we've had someone from Rennteam chime in and defend, I'd say there's substance...

Macca

Chris. Only one source here claims there have been catastrophic failures of big end rods on public roads at the hand of third party independent testers!

That's a bit different from what I and others may have been told. Im not saying it isnt true but what I am saying is my sources have not told be that so at this stage I would see it as possibly a bit sensationalist and actually quite unlikely. But I may be wrong.

All I was informed (by reliable source) was that there was a durability issue identified with the rods in the 991 GT3 engine during inspection when the mules engines were broken down at the end of the testing procedure and prior to the manufacturing process and upon subsequent consideration it was decided a stronger redesigned component was required to ensure life durability. The PDK-S box was just a decision to add further cooling in order to again ensure durability. The existing design showed no signs of fault only that it would benefit during repeated abuse from additional/better cooling circuit.

Both these issues have been in hand for months. This is not new as I was led to understand and a solution is found, parts are in order and to be delivered very shortly. Delay perhaps 4-8 weeks expected on initial orders but by Q2 2014 production everything should be caught up.

This "rod through crankcase" x 2 incidents on public road test driving 6-8 weeks ago is the post (on this board only) which has caused alarmist situation I believe totally unwarranted. Whats the chances after 2 years of testing with this engine that 2 out of 18 press cars produced threw a rod? Given every press car picture I have seen (and I believe I have seen them all!) shows maximum Kms of well under 8000 (most only 1500-2000) I would have to say that either they ran 20 cars off for Journos using a faulty component which went bang (i.e. that competent did not match the original design requirements as run by the mule cars) or its BS IMHO. If it were a design issue only and not a supplier part fault then it makes no sense why brand new cars would go bang when abused mules have no issues.....

I think people need to use some common sense here. There are alot of people waiting in the wings to crucify this car but actually I think there are also many connoisseurs and well known racers who have one on order, have driven it and love it, this includes a couple of very high profile race guys and a very well known DTM racer at the Ring etc. Yet none of us have still yet driven it....

Anyway its a most fascinating tale of mystery and intrigue...

Mike in CA

Chris, with all due respect on my part as well (damn, we're all getting so polite ) let's clarify a few things.

First, in the course of this discussion a specific question was asked about a dozen posts ago: "How many track days have you done with your 991S and how hard have you driven it on track?". I responded with my experience with a DFI motor and PDK and that of others I know about.

In reality, to date what we have here are unverified internet claims of rods exiting crankcases in the 991 GT3 in the hands of testers, with no details on any circumstances surrounding the supposed event(s). Even IF it happened, to suggest that this may signal an unfixable problem for Porsche (it's a con rod for christ sake), and causes concern for someone who has no interest in buying the car, seems a bit over the top.

I never suggested, even remotely, that testing wasn't important. It apparently uncovered this problem before the car was in the hands of the public. What I suggested was that once a problem is identified, evaluated, and fixed, the testing clock isn't reset to zero and another million miles of testing required, although I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the heart of Zuffenhausen several upgraded GT3 engines have been screaming along at 9K+ for some time now just to be sure.

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion about this, but I think you are grossly overstating the case with your comment about "very sloppy" engineering. I've owned Porsches for 30 years and there have always been a few flies in the ointment, as there are with every automobile. In general though, there has been no decline in overall quality that I can see (to the contrary) and customer surveys bear that out. However, if that's the way you feel you're probably right not to consider buying a 991 GT3. I'll suffer though my future ownership on your behalf, and let you know how it goes.