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I have a feeling 3-pedals took a bath on his 992 TTS. If he had put Cup 2 on it and gotten proper alignment, he would have discovered how awesome the car is.
You're doing something wrong. My dealer offered me $5-10k less than what I paid on three trade-ins. And when you factor in sales tax credit, the differential is even less. Plus I got to drive the cars and put miles on them, it's not all loss. Find one dealer and develop a win-win relationship with them. Even if your numbers were accurate, I wouldn't want to waste my time hustling cars for the sake of $105k, I have better ways to spend/waste time - like posting on RL!
I am not doing anything wrong. A dealer who has a $5000-$10000 profit margin on a GT3 cant remain profitable unless he is making more money elsewhere (i.e you have to trade back in the car you bought at MSRP thats worth $100,000 more and he gives you msrp for it). Do you understand how a car dealership business works? The flooring costs alone on a GT3 is almost $8,000. If the car needs tires, plugs, filters, belt, certification, you are looking at $10,000 of cost to them. Then they need to make money on the car. Do you think a Porsche dealer is going to make $5,000 on a GT3 because you are a good customer?
It was not a hassle for me at all. The only hassle was the part where I had to clean and take pictures. After that, you have to be a little smart about whose messages you take seriously vs not but I have had no problems.
It doesnt end with just the $100k though. $5,000 for a 2 year service that cost me $800? I think at this point I saved at least $20,000 doing my own service in my Porsches in the last 4 years. I value time as well but I also value how much time it takes me to make extra $100,000 or $20,000. In the case of selling cars, I put at most 20 hours (and thats generous). I think for 20 hours of my time spread across many days/weeks, $100k was worth it. Service was something else and it required more of my time with less return. The reason for doing it myself wasnt because of money but rather I dont trust others to take as much care about my property. Plus I dont like to be taken advantage of. I can afford $1200 to change spark plugs but I know how easy it is to change them and I know Porsche, by making spark plugs sound fancy and complex work because its a race engine, is inflating the numbers.
This isnt about being able to afford it vs not. Its a matter of principle. I was told 2.5 hours of labor to change the tires of my RS - about $625. I did them myself for $140 by a tire shop that simply did outstanding work vs I know the dealership will have some 28 year old kid who will scratch my wheels, wont put the wheel weights straight, etc. Its not all about money. Some of us get annoyed because people in the food chain don’t contribute that corresponds to how much money they are expected to be paid.
I am not doing anything wrong. A dealer who has a $5000-$10000 profit margin on a GT3 cant remain profitable unless he is making more money elsewhere (i.e you have to trade back in the car you bought at MSRP thats worth $100,000 more and he gives you msrp for it). Do you understand how a car dealership business works? The flooring costs alone on a GT3 is almost $8,000. If the car needs tires, plugs, filters, belt, certification, you are looking at $10,000 of cost to them. Then they need to make money on the car. Do you think a Porsche dealer is going to make $5,000 on a GT3 because you are a good customer?
It was not a hassle for me at all. The only hassle was the part where I had to clean and take pictures. After that, you have to be a little smart about whose messages you take seriously vs not but I have had no problems.
It doesnt end with just the $100k though. $5,000 for a 2 year service that cost me $800? I think at this point I saved at least $20,000 doing my own service in my Porsches in the last 4 years. I value time as well but I also value how much time it takes me to make extra $100,000 or $20,000. In the case of selling cars, I put at most 20 hours (and thats generous). I think for 20 hours of my time spread across many days/weeks, $100k was worth it. Service was something else and it required more of my time with less return. The reason for doing it myself wasnt because of money but rather I dont trust others to take as much care about my property. Plus I dont like to be taken advantage of. I can afford $1200 to change spark plugs but I know how easy it is to change them and I know Porsche, by making spark plugs sound fancy and complex work because its a race engine, is inflating the numbers.
This isnt about being able to afford it vs not. Its a matter of principle. I was told 2.5 hours of labor to change the tires of my RS - about $625. I did them myself for $140 by a tire shop that simply did outstanding work vs I know the dealership will have some 28 year old kid who will scratch my wheels, wont put the wheel weights straight, etc. Its not all about money. Some of us get annoyed because people in the food chain don’t contribute that corresponds to how much money they are expected to be paid.
Dealer makes a little money when they sell my trade in, they make more money on the car I buy. It works.
I think you're crunching too many numbers and dealing with too many logistics. Just buy cars you like at fair prices, drive and enjoy them, then trade in at a fair price when you buy the next car. You'll get fair prices if you stick to one good dealer and build a relationship. Car stuff is only supposed to be a business for car dealers.
Dealer makes a little money when they sell my trade in, they make more money on the car I buy. It works.
I think you're crunching too many numbers and dealing with too many logistics. Just buy cars you like at fair prices, drive and enjoy them, then trade in at a fair price when you buy the next car. You'll get fair prices if you stick to one good dealer and build a relationship. Car stuff is only supposed to be a business for car dealers.
You are actually wrong. Dealers make the most money in their used car department, followed by service, followed by new car department. This applies to “MSRP only” dealers. Maybe I should have stated that up front. If you are dealing with market pricing dealerships where you pay ADM on new cars then this doesnt work the same way. The dealers that are MSRP only cant make enough money to fund the franchise so they lowball you in trade in values. In the case of ADM dealers, you pay a high cost up front but in your trade in you may be given a higher price.
The figures I stated may be a bit on the extreme end. I was given slightly higher figures for trade in values (about $10-15k), it would still make at least $75k of difference in cost. Why would I leave that kind of money on the table? Its very hard to work your *** off to make money. Why just throw it away if you can try to avoid it?
You are actually wrong. Dealers make the most money in their used car department, followed by service, followed by new car department. This applies to “MSRP only” dealers. Maybe I should have stated that up front. If you are dealing with market pricing dealerships where you pay ADM on new cars then this doesnt work the same way. The dealers that are MSRP only cant make enough money to fund the franchise so they lowball you in trade in values. In the case of ADM dealers, you pay a high cost up front but in your trade in you may be given a higher price.
The figures I stated may be a bit on the extreme end. I was given slightly higher figures for trade in values (about $10-15k), it would still make at least $75k of difference in cost. Why would I leave that kind of money on the table? Its very hard to work your *** off to make money. Why just throw it away if you can try to avoid it?
Need to be clear that we're talking about sports cars, not the SUVs/sedans. My dealer gives me good trade-in prices because I keep buying cars from them (new and used) and servicing the cars there. They're making enough money, and I'm getting fair prices. The nice new cars are sold at MSRP, but only to repeat customers.
GT3 prices are dropping while 992 GTS prices are through the roof. I can't understand why anyone would pay 50-80k over on a GTS? Coming from me who sold a high spec 992 GTS last month at 8k over msrp to the dealer. I paid under msrp in January for a 195K MSRP GTS and almost ALL GTS's on the market now are going for 30-80K over lol That's ridiculous. Great car, but not one that commands an ADM. I just bought a 991.1 3RS to accompany my 992 GT3 at about 10k under msrp, 11k miles, some CPO left. Not very high spec but has everything I needed.
The only reason you are not talking about what you sold your car for is because the figure is low. Otherwise we would be hearing how the market is so hot still etc etc.
And selling it yourself vs dealer isnt a few grand or even $10k. In my recent experience of two sports cars the delta was $65k and almost $40k between what dealers were giving me vs what I sold my cars for. Stop twisting the facts to fit your narrative. If you put in the effort, you can sell anything and most certainly you selling it will yield a lot more $$$$ than someone else buying it from you only to resell it. Dealers have a minimum 10-12% profit margin on used cars. Keyword here being minimum. Margins are higher in GT cars.
The best way to understand the market is to negotiate a price on a car from a dealer. Then have that car you are trying to buy appraised by other dealers. And please do tell me the net delta between the price they are asking you to pay to buy vs what the car would yield today if you were to sell it to another dealer.
That figure is $30,000 in a manual GT3 give or take $5,000. I have done this study now so many times with so many different dealers and cars and the math always gives you the same numbers. In cars like tourings the delta can be as high as $50,000. I have looked at a touring that 2 dealers appraised $45,000-$57,000 below the price I had negotiated to buy the car at.
I apologize but some of you here deserve to get ripped off. You simply dont know any better AND you are not willing to put in the time and effort (because time is money right lol). People like this are the reason dealers can get away with ADM. Also why they can charge $1200 to change $120 worth of spark plugs that requires not even race ramps simply laying on your side.
In my experience, me selling my cars myself this year alone made me $105,000 more than what I would get if I sold them to a dealer. Put that money in any decent ETF and in 5 years thats a GT3 money with average returns. As you say time is money, it also costs time to make the money you literally threw away. Always two sides to a coin we should remind ourselves.
Value to each of us carry different weight. And I really don't care to be honest. Tomorrow I could be sleeping under dirt and I really don't care for the extra bucks here and there. That's just me and my value in life. Of course each and everyone of us have a different idea and game plan on a purchase or how much to list the car for. Me, if I think the deal a great deal then I pulled the trigger and move on and not look back. What I thought was a great deal may not be a great deal or a smart deal or a stupid give away deal is different to the next person sitting next to me. No difference to us go to a car dealership and secured a purchase. Would anyone sign knowing the deal is bad I don't think so. Money comes and goes and that is what currency really is.
Value to each of us carry different weight. And I really don't care to be honest. Tomorrow I could be sleeping under dirt and I really don't care for the extra bucks here and there. That's just me and my value in life. Of course each and everyone of us have a different idea and game plan on a purchase or how much to list the car for. Me, if I think the deal a great deal then I pulled the trigger and move on and not look back. What I thought was a great deal may not be a great deal or a smart deal or a stupid give away deal is different to the next person sitting next to me. No difference to us go to a car dealership and secured a purchase. Would anyone sign knowing the deal is bad I don't think so. Money comes and goes and that is what currency really is.
Honestly, will We remember what we did or how much we spend/ate or did today fast forward 10 years down the road? lol . Who cares and we can always make more money haha.
GT3 prices are dropping while 992 GTS prices are through the roof. I can't understand why anyone would pay 50-80k over on a GTS? Coming from me who sold a high spec 992 GTS last month at 8k over msrp to the dealer. I paid under msrp in January for a 195K MSRP GTS and almost ALL GTS's on the market now are going for 30-80K over lol That's ridiculous. Great car, but not one that commands an ADM. I just bought a 991.1 3RS to accompany my 992 GT3 at about 10k under msrp, 11k miles, some CPO left. Not very high spec but has everything I needed.
Paying an ADM for the GTS is beyond foolish, if you can afford to throw money away (and I envy you), then pay the extra $40k and buy a GT3 instead. Either way, there are over 50 GTS' sitting on Autotrader and none seem to be moving. This is also PEAK selling season (which is why there's been a drawndown of all inventory, even GT3s, compared to December) so seller pricing power will only fade into Q3 and beyond.
18845711[/url]]Wow things have really changed on Rennlist. It used to be discussions about the cars themselves and not necessarily about a 5 year old car with 29k miles as being used up and undesirable. A car that’s been driven approximately 6k per year is still a great car as long as it has been well maintained and not abused. This is true even with a GT car. When I had my 997.1 GT3 we used to focus on other things on this forum. I used to laugh at the Ferrari chat posts where people would be proud that their 10 or 20 year old Ferrari had virtually no miles on them. Mileage used to be a badge of honor on a Porsche. My 1988 911 which I bought new has over 152k miles on it that to me is low mileage for a 36 year old car. I love telling people how many miles are on the car because it’s in such great condition. So the answer is yes if I was in the market I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Touring with 29k miles on it as long as it was well maintained. It’s a shame we have become like the Ferrari chat people as far a mileage is concerned.
Yea theres a bunch of folks on RL now crying and arguing over miles and other silly stuff. I have a giggle when I read these convos. Glad to hear you are enjoying yours as well. I just turned 50k miles on my 991.1RS, just barely broken in and used as intended.
Cheers
This is one of the only fs threads on this forum where there is hardly any cars posted fs. Just a bunch of guys arguing over adms and car values.
Hey, I've tried to keep us on track by posting some decent fs options, but they don't seem to last long. GT3 market is too strong and undervalued (sorry) Looks like this one found a home
What are the thoughts about that car or in general tourings with FAL, PCCB and all other great options but no LWB. How much of a discount would one ask for lack of LWB?
I searched quite a while for the right GT3T. I passed on at least a dozen otherwise great cars because LWB's was a deal breaker for me. IMO sofa's, FAL and PCCB's are the 3 non-negotiable requirements if you intend to do any touring in your Touring.
06-13-2023, 10:22 AM
Looks like this one found a home
