I wasn't specifically addressing your post, but rather the general idea that keeps cropping up.

A new Taycan is like 200k and a year old one is like 100k. I'd rather have a 200k car that is worth 200k in a year than one that costs 100 for a year. Call me stupid.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...ort-turismo-2/

 

We're in a 964 forum, no one is talking about buying new Taycans, of course that's a dumb move. Those cars depreciate like AMG benzes. But a 2 year old one is an insane value right now. We're talking more about these cars and specialty stuff that sits because people are more concerned that miles/chips will depreciate their "investment" while not recognizing the smiles per miles it brings from actual use!

 

The comment was "Dudes who buy their cars thinking of the next buyer and the residual are straight up corny! I don't get ya." So I guess dude who paid 250 plus ADM for a Taycan Turbo S wasn't corny at all. He apparently was willing to pay $100 per mile for the joy of that car.

Same with the Gemballa modders who had 200k into their cars and now they are a joke. But I guess as long as they like that experience, they probably don't care that they got absolutely wrecked by making those mods.

Back when I got my first 964 in the 1990s, I thought paying a premium, albeit very small, for a used RS America was stupid because the C4 had a list price 20k higher and was about the same price slightly used as a similarly used RS America. When I was in my 20s, and was new to this, I was not thinking about whjether in 5 years the RS America would be more valuable than the C4. Of course, now it is obvious that I would have been better off buying the lower MSRP RS America. The cars would have provided about the same enjoyment, and cost about the same slightly used, but the RS over the following 10 years went up and the C4 dropped.

30 years later, I do take into account residual, and pay a premium for a car that I don't think will fall in value. It is not a perfect science, but it is pretty predictable. A used 992 Turbo S for 200k will not do as well as a used 991 GT3 for the same money. In fact, a used 991 GT3 probably will cost much less to own than a new base Carrera. Same for 964s. I believe a generic resto-mod 964 will do much worse than a Carrera RS, regardless of how many miles I drive either one.

Just one example of car where residual is going to be a huge factor in cost of ownership:

https://www.elferspot.com/en/car/por...-1990-3649509/

The buyer of this will end up spending more than if he bought a Carrera GT. Hope he enjoys it.

 

I don't see it as the continuum you say but you make a sound point. I see way too many of these cars change hands and as I see it there is such a dichotomy amongst buyers and investors. That inner common ground (the old school enthusiast aka driver) is being pushed out buy the investor. We are dying breed. At one point there was a continuum but that started to change around 2011 and was decimated by 22. The market has changed so much and continues to change. I see a clear divide and so many are buying because it is cool to own but don't want to get hurt. Most of the time they had never driven a 964 or 911.

The mindset is very different today then 30 years ago no doubt. We purchased cars back in the day. Today they are investments. My friend is sitting on a low mile but tracked 73RS he purchased new. He knows its value but no doubt has no interest in selling even though he could probably use the money. He drives the car. There are definite outliers. Clearly the monetization of our hobby has made a huge impact on values. As I see it I spent not invested my money just as I would a Bottle of bourbon or a steak dinner. If anything I preferred the days when these were just metal and I could enjoy it vs worrying about its value. I purchased many Bottles of Bourbon, Whisky an Wine etc. Some of which are now worth 1000 times what I paid but to me it will always be a $60 bottle of Bourbon I will enjoy with fiends one day.

I was never a finance guy like my friends. I find most of them sad because all they think about is making money. Investments are stocks bonds, gold etc we can even through houses in there but it is sad that the driver can barely afford a car these days because the investors have taken over.

 

Agree with that - some cars hold some don't.

What I was saying it that is CAN be a sliding scale as you indicate - but only from that buyers perspective. Others might not have the same comfort level, to drive a "collector mile" car..however are willing to pay good money for a driver..which for buyers of that mindset, shopping the same market...drives the price up for even non-collector cars. This is me explaining some of what many here refer to as "odd ball" sales where the price seems a lot more than someone of a different mindset would pay.

At this stage of the cars existance, don't you think a nice $80k driver will hold it's value just as much (MAYBE MORE) than a top of market $175k C2?

That said - been tracking some random cars and other than normal winter price drops, I'm still seeing some high asking prices...maybe seem overly optimistic... but then as I'm looking for parts for my project, I also see that the used AND NEW parts supply seems to be asking top dollar as well...no indication of the parts getting any cheaper, that's for sure. I wonder if this will spark a longer-term period of disrepair as many avoid spending on the cars? Or maybe will put some cars that were worth repairing/restoring previously into more of a salvage/part out situation.

 

The Taycan, Panamera, Cayenne or Macan buyer, EV especially should expect a huge loss in value within one year. I recently sold my 18 Macan GTS for $40k with 39k miles on the odo. It was an $88k car new when I picked it up. My son leased a 23 Macan GTS with an MSRP of over $94k and I bought out the lease with 10k miles on the odo for $68k. It was a worthwhile trade as the 23 is a more refined car and has more power. If I didn't have inside contacts that deal would have been far worse. Buying a taycan especially is a loosing proposition. I don't know of anyone who buys one expecting it to hold its value or ever do what these earlier cars did. The Panamera is the 928 of today. The used market is flooded with $200k cars selling for $30k with $60-80k in needs. As a service advisor my sons worst nightmare is telling the buyer of used Gen 1 Panamera that they just picked up has $80k in repairs needs just to be safe. Taycan owners are lucky to find a buyer if it is more than a few years old. The even bigger issues is none of the techs are trained and most don't want to work on them. Right now there is a recall that can only be done one car at a time and they all need it so get in line.

This belief that any Porsche is an appreciating asset because it is a Porsche has gotten out of control. This is only something that started happening recently and I don't understand the value over desire to own attitude. The increase in value was always a plus assuming it happens but never a guarantee.

 

A 991 Carrera or Carrera S, especially PDK and/or cab, probably is worth 1/2 of its initial cost with 40k miles on it. It is not just Taycans. The electric factor is a big one, as is the sedan factor, and the luxury/tech/safety/utility factor, but 911s are not at all immune from dropping in value.

Of course if one were to compare the MSRP of an S/T to its value in a year, that would be senseless, it should be "market" price of a car over time. So initial ADM, discount, etc. should be included.

There are two value factors that are getting intertwined here. One is the depreciation if no miles are put on the car, and the second is the extra depreciation due to added miles. I roughly look at the first category as the "investment" aspect and the second as the "consumption" aspect. The fact that a car is tanking regardless of miles or holding its value regardless of miles is somewhat separable from the marginal cost of a mile in either category.

I don't think that there is a clear answer to the expected depreciation of a $80k driver vs. $175k C2. If neither is driven and classic Porsches fall out of favor, I'd estimate similar percentage hits. Same if the desirability of 964 continues to rise, I'd guess a similar percentage increases. If both are driven, the 175k car will fall more than the 80k car, but the percentage drops might be in the opposite direction, especially if maintenance costs are included. So add 30k miles in each with a maintenance impact of 20k, and the 80k car might drop to 65k for a net cost of 35k, while the 175k car might drop to 125k for a net cost of 70k;

Anyway, I like my 964 as it is, and as I use it. I hope everyone else, who probably each has his own way of enjoying his car, likes theirs as much.

 

There is no arguing the economics of it. I agree to that. I know the market fairly well and could tell you which cars are and have been desirable. I think many of us here can do the same. Although I have watched the market go from 90% of the buyers being emotional about buying their dream car, to 70% of todays buyers being investors where there is little to no emotion involved. Many I know have never driven their cars or care to that much so long as they can make something off of it and brag they have it.

So when this goes from being an emotional purchase to a monetary investment is when I loose interest. I buy the best of what I like or want. I bond with my cars. I work, drive, show and race them. Once I purchase it I am done. I rarely sell and enjoyed them more when they were just metal. If I sell and get more great if not so be it. I always follow the market mostly for insurance and why not? When I looked for my turbo I was looking for either a 3.6T or a 993TT. I could have purchased either I purchased the car that spoke the most to me. Yet everyone scoffed that I chose the 3.6T over the 993TT. With offers as high as $675k I think I made a half decent choice but it is all about the enjoyment I get from the car and to me the increased value is nothing more than an incumbrance.

That is why I have always said you need to look at each car individually. It is also why I say buy it because it is what you like and get some enjoyment out of it. To me it is sickening all of these newly ordained experts selling their top buy lists. Use the market data it will get you someplace but I don't need that for me to know what to invest in and I have no interest in owning another at this time.

This goes for all cars in general there are those that will always be worth something more and then there will always be just metal. Enjoyable to drive but not investment grade.

So what are your thoughts on the recent singer sale on BaT? I think it was all the money and wouldn't pay you close to that. I also thought that if the 917K was sold at Gooding or Sotheby's it would have sold and for more than the $25M it was bid too. Mecum is trying but to me will always be American muscle and any prominent example of a German car never hit what I know it could do elsewhere there.

 

. I buy the best of what I like or want. I bond with my cars. I work, drive, show and race them. Once I purchase it I am done. I rarely sell and enjoyed them more when they were just metal.

^^ I think this is spot on^^ ... but Ifeel I am a old fart thinking this way .

 

I'm of the same mind. Of my cars, the 964 is the least valuable (cab/tip/****ty paint) but I enjoy the hell out of it. So in a sense it is my most valuable car since I drive it the most often and get the most fun out of it on a regular basis. I know if/when I ever sell it, I will "lose" money compared to what I have in it but a) I highly doubt I'll sell it anytime soon and b) who cares.

 

After watching auction nausea this weekend, it would appear that restomods are the only things for sale this year. Is this because no good original cars are left or that it is what people want? The Porsche's sold at BJ were all pretty high sell prices for dogs with fleas. Over $200k for a 993 T with S title and rebuild??? A 959 also with S title rebuild? I would never sell my Porsche at either BJ or Mecum but it would appear they are like another BaT a place to dispose of your so so cars but at least you can see the car in person.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/az25...-911-turbo-36/

I think the right cars in the right auctions did well.

there were a ton of cars that were very affordable out on the lawns at BJ. The results were surprising I was very tempted to go back and grab my checkbook….

 

Wow - I don't know what the buyer's premium was, but the all-in price for the buyer was probably pushing $475k, and it's not a particularly low-mileage or desirable color combination example. At this price I can only imagine what @cobalt 's 965 would've sold for.

 

I was recently offered $675k. Just $325k lower than the price management made me promise to sell at. LOL The only twin somewhat to mine sold for $621k a few months back. The white car has many questions as well. I don't want to get into it but I have no doubt it has had some work done. The CofA doesn't match the car, so either it is wrong or something has changed. I thought the number was quite strong considering.

I always said that Mecum and BJ is the wrong place to sell a Porsche.

 

Agree BJ and Mecum aren’t the best venues for Porsche’s. They’ve had a few good offerings from time to time, but mostly average or mediocre cars. I’ll always associate them with muscle and domestic cars. Seems the demographic for both is still mostly that although it’s gotten better. Don’t know why Jerry Seinfeld chose Mecum of all the possible auction houses to sell the McQueen 917K. Gooding, RM, and Bonhams would’ve been better places. Or probably could’ve sold it privately. Though I’m not sure how much interest the car had at the price that he wanted suspect $30 million was the desired figure.

That white 3.6 something wasn’t quite right about it. Did think in 2022 it had some work done even though stuff like paint meter readings were in range and VIN tags present on Symbolic BaT listing. Noted that the windshield was very likely a replacement. Love GP White however with the gray interior it ruined it for me. Black, blue, magenta, or anything else is better than that interior color with white. Also it doesn’t age well as a lot of sections are discolored.

Anthony you noted on the 964 Turbo market forum it didn’t have crest in the headrests, but if you look closely on the Symbolic BaT listing it did. Very hard to tell. Do you think the COA not matching the option sticker is more a problem with the COA or the car itself? Know they get COA’s wrong especially on these older cars. The only option on the option sticker the car didn’t have was the center cap crests denoted by XD4. I’m not exactly sure of each of the special request options codes such as deviated stitching or carpets. Did the gray interior come with dark gray piping and stitching? COA also says carpets in deviating color which thought this interior color had those color carpets?