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this is the first time ive taken a look at pcar market. the auction format looks identical to BAT. anyone know what their reputation is for success/ bringing proper value, compared to BAT?
BAT has way more viewers / eyeballs than BAT so you get more exposure. Generally you will get a bit more on BAT, if you have a Unicorn, you will definitely get more. My guess is you can list faster on PCAR where BAT maybe weeks / months out so if timing is important. I would avoid PCAR for non Porsche as I don’t think they have the audience built up.
What do people think the current peak value of an S4 is?
Checking auction results, Hagerty, etc., etc., I'm coming up with something like 35-40K for autos and 45-50K ish for manuals. This is for a low mileage car in near perfect condition cosmetically and mechanically.
S4s are more-or-less 34 years old now. Define “near perfect condition … mechanically.”
Hint: many, if not most, on BaT may be fully functional but they are mostly still an assembly of 34-year old parts. There have been notable exceptions but it is clear that the average BaT buyer doesn’t understand the difference. IOWs, the ones that are near perfect condition mechanically are valued less than those that need $60k of work to be near perfect condition mechanically but have low miles.
this is the first time ive taken a look at pcar market. the auction format looks identical to BAT. anyone know what their reputation is for success/ bringing proper value, compared to BAT?
They are much more flexible on reserve and are not as allergic to RNM auction results. But, they do not - for now at least - have the audience size of BaT.
S4s are more-or-less 34 years old now. Define “near perfect condition … mechanically.”
Hint: many, if not most, on BaT may be fully functional but they are mostly still an assembly of 34-year old parts. There have been notable exceptions but it is clear that the average BaT buyer doesn’t understand the difference. IOWs, the ones that are near perfect condition mechanically are valued less than those that need $60k of work to be near perfect condition mechanically but have low miles.
I really think our community is getting a bit carried away with the idea that ultra low mileage cars are somehow hidden disasters needing a life savings to become mechanically acceptable.
Is every other collector car with stupid low miles suffering from the same hidden laundry list of necessary maintenance? Not in my experience, and I've been dealing with ultra-low miles from other marques most of my life. I understand the idea that low miles doesn't automatically mean perfect or void of any maintenance, but it also doesn't automatically mean the car is a hidden basket case.
At the end of the day the only aspect of a collector car that can never be "fixed", is miles, at least legally or honestly. Which is why miles will always be a prime factor in the value of a collector car.
Local guy I ran into picked up an 87 Trans-AM, one owner with 25k miles on it, still had the original tires. He changed the fluids, installed new tires and proceeded to put about 3k miles on it last summer. No record of anything major done to it. He thinks even the belts & hoses are original.
I'd like to think a 928 is as well built if not better than an 80's F-body.
I really think our community is getting a bit carried away with the idea that ultra low mileage cars are somehow hidden disasters needing a life savings to become mechanically acceptable.
I think our community needs to read more carefully.
The poster to which I responded used "near perfect condition cosmetically and mechanically."
I used the phrase "fully functional."
You used the phrase "mechanically acceptable."
I submit that of these three phrases only the one I used has an objective definition. Hence why I asked: Define “near perfect condition … mechanically.”
Mechanically acceptable and mechanically perfect mean the same thing to you?
Originally Posted by hacker-pschorr
Is every other collector car with stupid low miles suffering from the same hidden laundry list of necessary maintenance? Not in my experience, and I've been dealing with ultra-low miles from other marques most of my life. I understand the idea that low miles doesn't automatically mean perfect or void of any maintenance, but it also doesn't automatically mean the car is a hidden basket case.
Storage conditions matter. Maintenance during storage matters. Expectations matter. The definition of "basket case" matters.
Originally Posted by hacker-pschorr
At the end of the day the only aspect of a collector car that can never be "fixed", is miles, at least legally or honestly. Which is why miles will always be a prime factor in the value of a collector car.
If people are paying today's prices for cars that will collect dust then I entirely agree that cosmetic condition and (low) mileage are all that matters.
Originally Posted by hacker-pschorr
Local guy I ran into picked up an 87 Trans-AM, one owner with 25k miles on it, still had the original tires. He changed the fluids, installed new tires and proceeded to put about 3k miles on it last summer. No record of anything major done to it. He thinks even the belts & hoses are original.
I'd like to think a 928 is as well built if not better than an 80's F-body.
This has nothing to do with 928s specifically or how "well built" is a car. Any old car with low mileage will have spent a lot of time "in storage." There's a world of difference between two originally-identical cars where one has been stored only in climate controlled conditions and where one has been stored in a typical garage that sees wide temperature and humidity swings. Regardless of storage conditions there are parts that after 30 to 40 years cannot be reasonably expected to continue to function for any non-trivial length of time if made to operate as originally intended. Last but not least is the issue of substandard maintenance applied in order to prepare a car for sale.
There's also a world of difference in expectations that are booked-ended with these two phrases:
- can be driven around town on sunny Sundays and if it breaks down can be pushed home (i.e. the typical "collector" car)
- looks new over and under and can be driven on a moment's notice from one coast to the other with little fear of breaking down.
I will double-down and write that the last batch of high-priced low-mileage 87+s on BaT were pigs with quickly-applied lipstick. A couple of off-the-top-of-my-head specifics: 65k+ autos with no crank end play check, intakes obviously rattle-canned in the engine bay...
Damn shame here a 78 (not 79) Euro 5 speed original minerva car that was obviously on the road at speed recently. This color combo and configuration may have been saved if it survived a little longer... maybe.
Damn shame here a 78 (not 79) Euro 5 speed original minerva car that was obviously on the road at speed recently. This color combo and configuration may have been saved if it survived a little longer... maybe.
I spoke to the seller. Car was wrecked years ago and was in storage. Owner could no longer keep up with the rent so he sold it to the current seller. Seller isn’t very cooperative about giving up more details about its current state or even willing to send current photos.
Damn shame here a 78 (not 79) Euro 5 speed original minerva car that was obviously on the road at speed recently. This color combo and configuration may have been saved if it survived a little longer... maybe.
Interesting aspect of the car - the license plate holder on the rear shows: automobilesetcetera.com A Google search shows up as Automobiles Etcetera in Mount Royal Canada. Their is a link to their inventory, but when I click on that, my Google Chrome responds that the link is blocked! The pictures of the principals in the business are interesting, but that's about all I could find in my search for the car's history. I don't recall ever seeing those wheels on any Porsche except for a Boxster/Cayman does anyone else have a better memory of their application that mine?
Calling our in-house expert on things associated with eastern Canada - @Bertrand Daoust Ha.
I am not sure why so many Porsche's are at Mecum this year. It really is not the right venue IMO. That GTS is sandwiched between a blazer and Ford Fairlane I suspect not many Porsche interested people will be there unless they came for the car itself. It is too early in the day and later on they have a 94 964 speedster and my friend is selling the Bad Boy's Movie 94 3.6 turbo movie car. I will be having friends over to watch this spectacle. Although again they are sandwiched between pretty much American hardware.
Although the money I see being spent so far seems this might be a banner year for these auction houses.
01-06-2022, 10:26 AM
