Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
03-06-2013, 02:46 AM
#1471
Rennlist Member
Hi Paul,
Peter makes some good points.
Firstly option 1. I understand your powerplant was rated at 200 bhp approx from factory. I may be wrong and Im no expert on this generation of 911. If you can get 235 real & reliable bhp for 15K by rebuilding this engine then I would suggest to cut a very long story short this is the path IMHO you should consider. That is a 17.5% increase over stock power. From my own experience I spent well over 12K to get 10% increase without the cost of any top end components (i.e. just cams, ECU, exhaust, intake, injectors and tuning).
If you can rebuild the top end do the 3.0 litre to make 235 bhp for 15k nzd then this is by far and away the clear winner. You still have a matching numbers 911 which one assumes would have a residual value of around 30k.
Option 2 is far more expensive for far less additional % gain. I would imagine a good set of PMO with the requisite ECU, tuning and install would add approximately 10k to option 1 for an additional 15-20 bhp.
Option 3 is a personal choice thing and I cant help you.
Option 4. Here you would be buying a used 964/994 engine for anywhere from 8k-18k. I think you will find there is alot of work involved to graft the 3.6 to the Carrera 3. My guess is this would end up being a 30K project which will have a negative overall effect on the residual of your vehicle (no longer original matching numbers etc). A custom loom will need to be made along with a custom manifold and exhaust.
Options 5 & 6 are again personal choices. Again my thought travel back to option 1. If you can spend 15K making your car at least 17% more powerful than it was before then given the power/weight ratio you now have a better power to weight ratio than a stock 964 (1270kg @ 250 bhp). My thoughts are that this would keep you entertained for at least another year on track (you will likely be more competitive and your times would fall sub 1.20 at HD). At the end of this time you could sell you original matching numbers Carrera 3.0 and put the 30k as a down payment on a 75-80k GT3 with a low interest deal on the mortgage and start playing at the next level.
Option 7. Ive discussed this with another member of the forum. You probably wont be surprised to learn that it costs alot of money to hot rod a 911 properly. I wont speak for Sean (his business) but from my own experience spending 80K on modifying a 911 to get it to a standard you find desirable is not difficult. Sean could likely own a 996 GT3 for his car and that's long before touching the engine (a project I believe he is embarking on shortly). My guess is to buy Matts 964 would cost say 40k. I hear its a very nice example and probably far too nice to hot rod! To get it lighter, set up with the right suspension, wheels, tyres, seats, clutch, flywheel, swaybars, cage etc your talking another 25-30K assuming no paint needed. If you wish to "breath" lightly on the engine consider another 10K. If you want to breath a little heavier (say mild street 3.8) try 20K. Breath hard for the ultimate rodded 964 track/autoX 3.8 with PMO, Motec, tuning etc (350 bhp) and you are talking +40K. So you can see the final product could be anywhere from 65K-110K. If this sounds unrealistic its simply not. Its probably on the light side (Im sure Sean can confer).
Option 8. No comment!
For what you have, where you are now and where you want to be, and the funds available - my belief is Option 1. Rebuild existing engine to 235 bhp for 15k (if thats indeed all it will cost). Enjoy it on track and targa reliably for another 12 months and then sell it to fund something higher up the ladder.
Again, I lean on Sean as the only other on this board Im aware has done this, modifying a base car (911, 964 or 993) into your idea of a magic bus requires resources, time and patience and you will end up with 100K+ investment in a vehicle that will not resell for anywhere that amount of money and likely cost to keep in tip top condition. This is where factory hardware such as 996 GT3 has virtues. Cheap, strong, reliable, modest running cost and build to the task at hand...
All IMHO of course.
Peter makes some good points.
Firstly option 1. I understand your powerplant was rated at 200 bhp approx from factory. I may be wrong and Im no expert on this generation of 911. If you can get 235 real & reliable bhp for 15K by rebuilding this engine then I would suggest to cut a very long story short this is the path IMHO you should consider. That is a 17.5% increase over stock power. From my own experience I spent well over 12K to get 10% increase without the cost of any top end components (i.e. just cams, ECU, exhaust, intake, injectors and tuning).
If you can rebuild the top end do the 3.0 litre to make 235 bhp for 15k nzd then this is by far and away the clear winner. You still have a matching numbers 911 which one assumes would have a residual value of around 30k.
Option 2 is far more expensive for far less additional % gain. I would imagine a good set of PMO with the requisite ECU, tuning and install would add approximately 10k to option 1 for an additional 15-20 bhp.
Option 3 is a personal choice thing and I cant help you.
Option 4. Here you would be buying a used 964/994 engine for anywhere from 8k-18k. I think you will find there is alot of work involved to graft the 3.6 to the Carrera 3. My guess is this would end up being a 30K project which will have a negative overall effect on the residual of your vehicle (no longer original matching numbers etc). A custom loom will need to be made along with a custom manifold and exhaust.
Options 5 & 6 are again personal choices. Again my thought travel back to option 1. If you can spend 15K making your car at least 17% more powerful than it was before then given the power/weight ratio you now have a better power to weight ratio than a stock 964 (1270kg @ 250 bhp). My thoughts are that this would keep you entertained for at least another year on track (you will likely be more competitive and your times would fall sub 1.20 at HD). At the end of this time you could sell you original matching numbers Carrera 3.0 and put the 30k as a down payment on a 75-80k GT3 with a low interest deal on the mortgage and start playing at the next level.
Option 7. Ive discussed this with another member of the forum. You probably wont be surprised to learn that it costs alot of money to hot rod a 911 properly. I wont speak for Sean (his business) but from my own experience spending 80K on modifying a 911 to get it to a standard you find desirable is not difficult. Sean could likely own a 996 GT3 for his car and that's long before touching the engine (a project I believe he is embarking on shortly). My guess is to buy Matts 964 would cost say 40k. I hear its a very nice example and probably far too nice to hot rod! To get it lighter, set up with the right suspension, wheels, tyres, seats, clutch, flywheel, swaybars, cage etc your talking another 25-30K assuming no paint needed. If you wish to "breath" lightly on the engine consider another 10K. If you want to breath a little heavier (say mild street 3.8) try 20K. Breath hard for the ultimate rodded 964 track/autoX 3.8 with PMO, Motec, tuning etc (350 bhp) and you are talking +40K. So you can see the final product could be anywhere from 65K-110K. If this sounds unrealistic its simply not. Its probably on the light side (Im sure Sean can confer).
Option 8. No comment!
For what you have, where you are now and where you want to be, and the funds available - my belief is Option 1. Rebuild existing engine to 235 bhp for 15k (if thats indeed all it will cost). Enjoy it on track and targa reliably for another 12 months and then sell it to fund something higher up the ladder.
Again, I lean on Sean as the only other on this board Im aware has done this, modifying a base car (911, 964 or 993) into your idea of a magic bus requires resources, time and patience and you will end up with 100K+ investment in a vehicle that will not resell for anywhere that amount of money and likely cost to keep in tip top condition. This is where factory hardware such as 996 GT3 has virtues. Cheap, strong, reliable, modest running cost and build to the task at hand...
All IMHO of course.
03-06-2013, 03:18 AM
#1472
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So based on macca's final comment and the previous replies I'm counting 4 votes for GT3... But fixing yours first as something to put into it after enjoying it for a bit.
What's your pref?
What's your pref?
03-06-2013, 04:54 AM
#1473
Rennlist Member
03-06-2013, 04:56 AM
#1474
Three Wheelin'
Been reading a bit of this thread - didn't know there were such an active group of kiwis on rennlist. Have been wandering around this site for a few years now but not that active. I'm in
welly. PCNZ member and Targa competitor but in a subaru. Used to own a 996gt3 but boxster road car since I have been into more hard core race cars. Also a fraser clubman for occasional track duty.
welly. PCNZ member and Targa competitor but in a subaru. Used to own a 996gt3 but boxster road car since I have been into more hard core race cars. Also a fraser clubman for occasional track duty.
03-06-2013, 05:38 AM
#1475
Rennlist Member
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-567099915.htm
I understand that there may be someone looking at this already. That aside I contacted the sellers agent and said I'd be interested in it with a view to breaking it if the price was in the low 20's.
Pluses are low mileage motor, manual transmission, black interior, factory sports seats. I thought I'd snafu the seats and engine cover, possibly the bonnet and flog the rest. It all depends on the initial price.
I understand that there may be someone looking at this already. That aside I contacted the sellers agent and said I'd be interested in it with a view to breaking it if the price was in the low 20's.
Pluses are low mileage motor, manual transmission, black interior, factory sports seats. I thought I'd snafu the seats and engine cover, possibly the bonnet and flog the rest. It all depends on the initial price.
03-06-2013, 06:07 AM
#1476
Rennlist Member
I spend heaps on the mechanical's, only for the car to get rougher on the outside as that's what targas and track days do to them. There is no point in touching up the bonnet etc. every 12 months.
I am tending to agree with Macca on the engine options:
If it was an SC or 3.2 Carrera, I would just walk away,cut my loses and sell as is.
The difficultly is the car is rare and becoming collectable. In NZ few people know what a C3 is and assume it's an SC. They are similar but not the same, a C3 is 50kgs lighter and has a lighter engine crank, so is faster and loves to rev. It's a go kart and dances on the throttle in a way that heavier Porsche's can't do.
I like the rareness of the car as no one else has one. I am only aware of 2 other coupes in NZ, one a tired race car and the other is rusty, so I never see another C3 at club events or on the road.
The thing is I'm really attached to the car and would probably never sell, just add as the opportunities arise.
Macca - It's quite easy to get a good bump out of my C3 as it was detuned for 70's smog, to find 25-30hp, all I do is back date the exhaust to 73 vintage 911 (SSI's), lift compression with new pistons and install a 964 profile cam.
I also like this vintage of Porsche. We all have a our favorites for various reasons, Macca loves his coz he got married in it etc...I like the impact bumper area Porsche's coz I'm an 80's kid and my Dad had SC's and 930's when I was a kid. So my views are polarized.
I couldn't see myself buying a 996GT3 - they are weapons yes, but for a $100K, I'd be more inclined to buy a 74 Carrera 2.7 (probably need $150K now as they keep going up), or a 73 RSR / RS replica painted lime green or continental orange, as this is more my thing when it comes to Porsche's. I have more of a bent towards classic cars than the latest technology.
The attached cars below are more my cuppa........see the orange and green Carrera's at the bottom of the page.
http://www.classicthrottleshop.com.au/classics.htm
03-06-2013, 06:09 AM
#1477
Rennlist Member
03-06-2013, 06:13 AM
#1478
Rennlist Member
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-567099915.htm
I understand that there may be someone looking at this already. That aside I contacted the sellers agent and said I'd be interested in it with a view to breaking it if the price was in the low 20's.
Pluses are low mileage motor, manual transmission, black interior, factory sports seats. I thought I'd snafu the seats and engine cover, possibly the bonnet and flog the rest. It all depends on the initial price.
I understand that there may be someone looking at this already. That aside I contacted the sellers agent and said I'd be interested in it with a view to breaking it if the price was in the low 20's.
Pluses are low mileage motor, manual transmission, black interior, factory sports seats. I thought I'd snafu the seats and engine cover, possibly the bonnet and flog the rest. It all depends on the initial price.
03-06-2013, 07:53 AM
#1480
Rennlist Member
Paul. I think you have probably answered your own question now.
Like you my 911 is more than a sum of its parts. Its 13 years (and 50,000+km) of enjoyment. Its had many guises and this is part of the enjoyment of ownership. For me there is nothing quite like the packaging of a 911 up to and including the 993 variant. Beyond that the only thing of interest to me has been the GT3 variants for their visceral "old school" type appeal (rawer, louder, more direct - as the production models have got plusher and heavier).
I say keep the old girl and give her engine a second life. If you can get a strong 225 bhp out of her I think it will entertain for many more miles to come. Frankly she was likely down on power before the rings went (or whatever the final diagnosis reveals). It will feel and sound like a new car again once the work has been done. The bodywork is just metal and paint. If its sound it can be brought back to new anytime the budget allows. Leave it for now, if it were sparkling your be feeling guilty taking it on the Targa or track and getting the enjoyment you so obviously do from the car.
Spending a fortune on an old 911 is not for the feint of heart. I know I could have bought a near new 911 for what I have in mine but don't regret it one bit (although Im at pains to point out there are some things I would not have attempted had I known the expense and time required). Ive never been able to stop myself personalizing my cars and the 993 has become the ultimate incarnation of this hobby. Id like to say Im finished but I still have some projects up my sleeve before pressing her into service as a future vintage tarmac rally fugitive (GT2 uprights, front and rear uniball camber plates, Brembo RS brakes, lighter wheels, recaro seats and if a lotto win a 9m tune up would be lovely).
The one thing many underestimate is the time this all takes. If you have a young family, are busy climbing the career ladder or building up your equity working on your home on the weekends etc then building a hot rod isnt a wise move on a budget. Over the years Ive spend 100s and 100s of hours researching. Often even for something as simple as the bolt in half cage i may spend 10-12 hours weighing up all the options, sourcing the best supplier, getting the spec right and making sure im getting the best price. It can be all consuming.
The problem ultimately becomes something you touched on yourself. Rarity/scarcity/value. Im very conscious that many of the CF/classic grey interior appointments I have in the car are no longer available ex factory at any price. Furthermore even simple OEM mechanical parts like LWFC, interior/exterior trim and seals, badges, and suspension parts have mostly doubled in list price from when I purchased the parts 3-10 years ago, meaning much of what Ive bought wouldn't be viable in the future. This is the part that creates the ultimate consternation. At what point does one stand back and say - "enough, this car is too valuable to risk doing these pursuits"? I guess it depends on the individual....
Like you my 911 is more than a sum of its parts. Its 13 years (and 50,000+km) of enjoyment. Its had many guises and this is part of the enjoyment of ownership. For me there is nothing quite like the packaging of a 911 up to and including the 993 variant. Beyond that the only thing of interest to me has been the GT3 variants for their visceral "old school" type appeal (rawer, louder, more direct - as the production models have got plusher and heavier).
I say keep the old girl and give her engine a second life. If you can get a strong 225 bhp out of her I think it will entertain for many more miles to come. Frankly she was likely down on power before the rings went (or whatever the final diagnosis reveals). It will feel and sound like a new car again once the work has been done. The bodywork is just metal and paint. If its sound it can be brought back to new anytime the budget allows. Leave it for now, if it were sparkling your be feeling guilty taking it on the Targa or track and getting the enjoyment you so obviously do from the car.
Spending a fortune on an old 911 is not for the feint of heart. I know I could have bought a near new 911 for what I have in mine but don't regret it one bit (although Im at pains to point out there are some things I would not have attempted had I known the expense and time required). Ive never been able to stop myself personalizing my cars and the 993 has become the ultimate incarnation of this hobby. Id like to say Im finished but I still have some projects up my sleeve before pressing her into service as a future vintage tarmac rally fugitive (GT2 uprights, front and rear uniball camber plates, Brembo RS brakes, lighter wheels, recaro seats and if a lotto win a 9m tune up would be lovely).
The one thing many underestimate is the time this all takes. If you have a young family, are busy climbing the career ladder or building up your equity working on your home on the weekends etc then building a hot rod isnt a wise move on a budget. Over the years Ive spend 100s and 100s of hours researching. Often even for something as simple as the bolt in half cage i may spend 10-12 hours weighing up all the options, sourcing the best supplier, getting the spec right and making sure im getting the best price. It can be all consuming.
The problem ultimately becomes something you touched on yourself. Rarity/scarcity/value. Im very conscious that many of the CF/classic grey interior appointments I have in the car are no longer available ex factory at any price. Furthermore even simple OEM mechanical parts like LWFC, interior/exterior trim and seals, badges, and suspension parts have mostly doubled in list price from when I purchased the parts 3-10 years ago, meaning much of what Ive bought wouldn't be viable in the future. This is the part that creates the ultimate consternation. At what point does one stand back and say - "enough, this car is too valuable to risk doing these pursuits"? I guess it depends on the individual....
03-06-2013, 08:02 AM
#1482
Rennlist Member
I just remembered I have a set of new shoes for the Turbo 3.6. A quick search indicates I can squeeze 18" wheels on the C4. I have a new plan.
Anyway back in the Country tomorrow and in the garage. Pics to follow of various parts to identify suspension etc.
03-06-2013, 08:06 AM
#1483
Rennlist Member
John. You can likely squeeze 18" under there. Not sure how it will affect the handling. You may also need the steering brace reinforcement brace (as I did) as the earlier cars were not designed to take 18" wheels although many people have fitted them. A quick rennlist search will reveal all....
03-06-2013, 02:05 PM
#1484
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Any pics yet?
I just remembered I have a set of new shoes for the Turbo 3.6. A quick search indicates I can squeeze 18" wheels on the C4. I have a new plan.
Anyway back in the Country tomorrow and in the garage. Pics to follow of various parts to identify suspension etc.
I just remembered I have a set of new shoes for the Turbo 3.6. A quick search indicates I can squeeze 18" wheels on the C4. I have a new plan.
Anyway back in the Country tomorrow and in the garage. Pics to follow of various parts to identify suspension etc.
I was originally planning on 18's - the hollow spoke turbo twists are still available for $1,500 - front offset is fine but the rear at ET40 is right on the outer limit and would need fender work to squeeze in. Also while they have good track tires the rears would probably also ned replacing as they are 285. 265 would be better suited for C4.
Tell us of this plan of which you speak....
03-06-2013, 03:47 PM
#1485
Rennlist Member
I have a set of brand new 18" Michelins PS2s, 225/40 and 265/35. I will put those on the show pony and use the freed up same size Bridgestone S03s on a set of Veloce.
I'm doing the research now as I don't want to use spacers. Given I already have the tyres this is very cost effective. Maybe $2,250 to end up like this.
I'm doing the research now as I don't want to use spacers. Given I already have the tyres this is very cost effective. Maybe $2,250 to end up like this.