Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
10-03-2013, 05:03 AM
#5161
Rennlist Member
No problem Doug. These are all just opinions and theories of course.
My views on race pads for the purpose of addressing pad longevity only is that although they may last longer than OEM pads, the discs they are eating will not. Increased friction means faster rotor wear and chance of deposit build up which can cause uneven rotor surfaces (shimmy). Whats cheaper discs or pads?
My other concern with changing pad compound on one axle is that you are shifting the brake bias to that axle. i.e, you put in Pagid yellow on front discs leave rears OEM you are now working against the factory PV settings (proportional valve). i.e. if the factory determined that the front rotors should be doing 1.4x the retardation of the rears and you put Pagid yellow 29s up front then you are now changing the dynamics of the car under brakes (i.e. 1.55x braking now by the front rotors).
There must be a simple brake ventilation kit you can buy for a Boxster S. If you cant bear the squeal from the yellows sell them to Pete M and spend some small money on a brake ventilation kit and stick with the much cheaper factory pads. Im pretty sure once you get some decent ventilation to those rotors you will get 3x the track like out off the front pads and the rears will likely be good 1.3x longer than the fronts....
Your boxster is only 100kg heavier than my 993, makes more power and has 25% more pad coverage front and rear with 15% larger discs. We both have SFR and factory pads so your wear rates must be due to disc heat. I have a ventilation system which I swear now was worth every penny of the investment (previously have complained how much I spent to set it up LOL) so that is one area we could consider is different. The other is driving style. Maybe you are using the brakes longer than I am in a corner instead of jumping on them hard later on, but I dint believe that can account for the rate of wear you speak. Im sure guys who rack your car on the appropriate RL board will have plenty of experience in this area. Luckily we have plenty of absolute anoraks on the 993 board like one racer called Bill Veyburg who is literrally world famous in setting up 993s for track work and has had alot of input with getting my own car sorted for the track (we are about 80% of the way there now). He puts together tables of research like teh oe below for comparing stock 993 brakes against Turbo and RS variants and hybrid variants (mixes). Unreal! Hopefully you have someone as **** on the 987 forum....
My views on race pads for the purpose of addressing pad longevity only is that although they may last longer than OEM pads, the discs they are eating will not. Increased friction means faster rotor wear and chance of deposit build up which can cause uneven rotor surfaces (shimmy). Whats cheaper discs or pads?
My other concern with changing pad compound on one axle is that you are shifting the brake bias to that axle. i.e, you put in Pagid yellow on front discs leave rears OEM you are now working against the factory PV settings (proportional valve). i.e. if the factory determined that the front rotors should be doing 1.4x the retardation of the rears and you put Pagid yellow 29s up front then you are now changing the dynamics of the car under brakes (i.e. 1.55x braking now by the front rotors).
There must be a simple brake ventilation kit you can buy for a Boxster S. If you cant bear the squeal from the yellows sell them to Pete M and spend some small money on a brake ventilation kit and stick with the much cheaper factory pads. Im pretty sure once you get some decent ventilation to those rotors you will get 3x the track like out off the front pads and the rears will likely be good 1.3x longer than the fronts....
Your boxster is only 100kg heavier than my 993, makes more power and has 25% more pad coverage front and rear with 15% larger discs. We both have SFR and factory pads so your wear rates must be due to disc heat. I have a ventilation system which I swear now was worth every penny of the investment (previously have complained how much I spent to set it up LOL) so that is one area we could consider is different. The other is driving style. Maybe you are using the brakes longer than I am in a corner instead of jumping on them hard later on, but I dint believe that can account for the rate of wear you speak. Im sure guys who rack your car on the appropriate RL board will have plenty of experience in this area. Luckily we have plenty of absolute anoraks on the 993 board like one racer called Bill Veyburg who is literrally world famous in setting up 993s for track work and has had alot of input with getting my own car sorted for the track (we are about 80% of the way there now). He puts together tables of research like teh oe below for comparing stock 993 brakes against Turbo and RS variants and hybrid variants (mixes). Unreal! Hopefully you have someone as **** on the 987 forum....
10-03-2013, 05:53 AM
#5162
Three Wheelin'
race, classic, daily driver....
Macca your car is getting more extreme and with the direction you are taking so not really 3 in 1. You don't spend enough time here in NZ to qualify it as a daily driver but definitely hard edged sports bias.
I do believe that the most enjoyment is when the car is fit for purpose and that means a often a narrow application but also means a higher high of enjoyment when in that application. None of my cars can duplicate the joy of any of the others. All completely different. Not all Pcars though.
Targa is going to be interesting this year. The car is now harder to drive in a relaxed manner on touring stages with a fairly savage clutch and with the dog box installed at low speeds it is a bit shunty and of course a lot more noisy, resulting in touring headsets. Its going to be faster but probably more tiring. Time will tell.
Macca your car is getting more extreme and with the direction you are taking so not really 3 in 1. You don't spend enough time here in NZ to qualify it as a daily driver but definitely hard edged sports bias.
I do believe that the most enjoyment is when the car is fit for purpose and that means a often a narrow application but also means a higher high of enjoyment when in that application. None of my cars can duplicate the joy of any of the others. All completely different. Not all Pcars though.
Targa is going to be interesting this year. The car is now harder to drive in a relaxed manner on touring stages with a fairly savage clutch and with the dog box installed at low speeds it is a bit shunty and of course a lot more noisy, resulting in touring headsets. Its going to be faster but probably more tiring. Time will tell.
10-03-2013, 06:11 AM
#5163
Rennlist Member
Hi Graeme. I don't disagree.
Its becoming less daily driver and more for touring, targa and track. Its still a great open road car as Paul & Ray will attest. Not noisy infact at all - everyone has been surprised you can have a normal conversation in it and also on the phone with bluetooth kit. Better yet the suspension is really forgiving (well set up on rebound as well as compression - never bottoms out even on the biggest high speed road compression's). Its very easy to drive still (my wife can drive it fine). It is still a better fast road/targa car than a track car but Ill probably leave it with that bias, there's only a few minor changes I wish to make now for the track.
Luckily I don't really need a daily driver in NZ. If I do the 991 GT3 will suffice (although the wife will mostly use it I guess). It sounds like the best GT3 yet for daily use - Im used to pretty hardcore daily rides. Infact a tractor would bee more comfortable than my current DD.
I really enjoy reading stories on RL about 993 guys who have done now 500k km in their 993 they bought new. There are a few of them. I envy anyone who can put that many miles on a 993 and wear it so it fits like a glove and they know that car so well. Its like the guy with the 70s Volvo coupe in the states who has done 1 million miles - I really envy that guy. Even after 14 years ownership I will take the 993 everywhere I can at every opportunity. Even the old ladies walking down the road in Milford like to see it when I go get a coffee. Thing is they are already deaf so they are my friends...
Its becoming less daily driver and more for touring, targa and track. Its still a great open road car as Paul & Ray will attest. Not noisy infact at all - everyone has been surprised you can have a normal conversation in it and also on the phone with bluetooth kit. Better yet the suspension is really forgiving (well set up on rebound as well as compression - never bottoms out even on the biggest high speed road compression's). Its very easy to drive still (my wife can drive it fine). It is still a better fast road/targa car than a track car but Ill probably leave it with that bias, there's only a few minor changes I wish to make now for the track.
Luckily I don't really need a daily driver in NZ. If I do the 991 GT3 will suffice (although the wife will mostly use it I guess). It sounds like the best GT3 yet for daily use - Im used to pretty hardcore daily rides. Infact a tractor would bee more comfortable than my current DD.
I really enjoy reading stories on RL about 993 guys who have done now 500k km in their 993 they bought new. There are a few of them. I envy anyone who can put that many miles on a 993 and wear it so it fits like a glove and they know that car so well. Its like the guy with the 70s Volvo coupe in the states who has done 1 million miles - I really envy that guy. Even after 14 years ownership I will take the 993 everywhere I can at every opportunity. Even the old ladies walking down the road in Milford like to see it when I go get a coffee. Thing is they are already deaf so they are my friends...
10-03-2013, 06:19 AM
#5164
Rennlist Member
race, classic, daily driver.... Macca your car is getting more extreme and with the direction you are taking so not really 3 in 1. You don't spend enough time here in NZ to qualify it as a daily driver but definitely hard edged sports bias. I do believe that the most enjoyment is when the car is fit for purpose and that means a often a narrow application but also means a higher high of enjoyment when in that application. None of my cars can duplicate the joy of any of the others. All completely different. Not all Pcars though. Targa is going to be interesting this year. The car is now harder to drive in a relaxed manner on touring stages with a fairly savage clutch and with the dog box installed at low speeds it is a bit shunty and of course a lot more noisy, resulting in touring headsets. Its going to be faster but probably more tiring. Time will tell.
10-03-2013, 06:25 AM
#5165
Pete, awesome work! Looks the part, can't wait to check it out... will you be taking it to the twilight session? Might just tip me over the edge to attending that event...
10-03-2013, 06:25 AM
#5166
Three Wheelin'
I read on the internet somewhere about the 993 C2S that had done 200kmiles. Engine rebuilt, RS clutch and flywheel dyno'd at 330hp. body repainted and gearbox rebuilt too. sold for 16.5k pounds. Great deal I thought and probably good now to run another 200k. If I had seen it would have bought it for a daily driver.
Don't think you are ever going to be able to sell that car Macca.
Don't think you are ever going to be able to sell that car Macca.
10-03-2013, 06:51 AM
#5167
Rennlist Member
You lead a tough life Macca............
I am actually surprised at how civilized your car is. With the front strut and carbon fiber panels etc. I was quietly thinking you were taking it too far.
But after the squirt in your car, I was really surprised at how easy it was to drive. Having stepped out of Matt's 996 GT3, your car was far friendlier on the road.
Matt's was nosier and harsher than I expected - (not that I had a problem with this
)
I am actually surprised at how civilized your car is. With the front strut and carbon fiber panels etc. I was quietly thinking you were taking it too far.
But after the squirt in your car, I was really surprised at how easy it was to drive. Having stepped out of Matt's 996 GT3, your car was far friendlier on the road.
Matt's was nosier and harsher than I expected - (not that I had a problem with this
)
Last edited by kiwi 911; 10-04-2013 at 12:39 AM.
10-03-2013, 07:43 AM
#5168
Rennlist Member
Thanks Paul. It was pretty good given the track settings and tyres. Better still if you spend 10 mins to soften up the ARB's, dial down the shocks it handles much nicer on the road. Of course less camber and road tyres would be the final touch for a targa and some touring.
Graeme. They will be burying me in it like Im buring the receipts for the money I spend on it LOL
Yes I read about that 993 also. on the 993 board there are now 5-6 US guys with 180k+ miles on the clock - many without even a bottom end rebuild! These cars liked to be used. The highest I recall is 320k miles.
John you are braver than me. Winding that pony up to 210kmph on the back straight means alot more braking for turn 1. Wear two pairs of pants!
Graeme. They will be burying me in it like Im buring the receipts for the money I spend on it LOL
Yes I read about that 993 also. on the 993 board there are now 5-6 US guys with 180k+ miles on the clock - many without even a bottom end rebuild! These cars liked to be used. The highest I recall is 320k miles.
John you are braver than me. Winding that pony up to 210kmph on the back straight means alot more braking for turn 1. Wear two pairs of pants!
10-03-2013, 07:49 AM
#5169
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=kiwi 911;10802758]You lead a tough life Macca............
Mate that's selective quoting you are doing there LOL!
I actually do lead a hard life! Whilst you all cozy up with your mod cons and carpet and enjoy your health systems, emergency services roads and decent schools Im in the jungle with the bunnies being crapped on by gekos loosing my suspension in pot hole/craters and avoiding tropical diseases. You only get to hear about the cars, see the 993 and me when Im dressed in NZ threads - you forget 75% of the year Im in a grass skirt avoiding Maleria surrounded by people that look terrifying and carry bush knives as they walk along the pavement in town!
Mate that's selective quoting you are doing there LOL!
I actually do lead a hard life! Whilst you all cozy up with your mod cons and carpet and enjoy your health systems, emergency services roads and decent schools Im in the jungle with the bunnies being crapped on by gekos loosing my suspension in pot hole/craters and avoiding tropical diseases. You only get to hear about the cars, see the 993 and me when Im dressed in NZ threads - you forget 75% of the year Im in a grass skirt avoiding Maleria surrounded by people that look terrifying and carry bush knives as they walk along the pavement in town!
10-03-2013, 02:17 PM
#5170
Rennlist Member
It is a very different power and torque curve, which is why I'll take corners carefully, but don't forget it has a LSD, ABS and Big Reds. Porsche are not known for under specifying their braking systems. It's also a matter of common sense. The Regularity series will be at some largish meets. What better car could there be out there to enjoy laps when time limited?
10-03-2013, 02:22 PM
#5171
Racer
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P.S. If you estimate Toyo 888 are 1.5s slower than 214s at Taupo I would estimate that 221s fit right in the middle at around .75s faster than 888s. Im guessing the RE55s between the 888 and the 221s.
I personally cant see how there is more than 2-3 seconds between a top ultra performance road tyre (say Michelin Super Sport) and a top Dot Tyre (say MPSC or 221) on a short course like HD/Manfield assume same car, same geo, same driver, same conditions....
I personally cant see how there is more than 2-3 seconds between a top ultra performance road tyre (say Michelin Super Sport) and a top Dot Tyre (say MPSC or 221) on a short course like HD/Manfield assume same car, same geo, same driver, same conditions....
10-03-2013, 02:28 PM
#5172
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Thanks for the story of the 993RS and your thoughts on brakes and pads Macca.... Much appreciated.
I've still got "brake hard, brake harder.... When I tell you to brake hard, I mean brake really hard" ringing in my ears from Racing Ray at Taupo and Mansfield.
I was running near new std Porsche Boxster S pads and they worked beautifully. No problems stopping. With SRF fluid the fade was far less on the track. But boy did they wear fast! Two other boxster platform owners (Nigel Caigou and Peter Meredith) recommended Pagid Yellows which I now have installed to handle heat better and substantially longer life. When I compared prices they were only 10-20% more expensive and are more an endurance style pad!
I'll give them a month or so of daily use and may revert to just using them on track days or for a series of track days. If you can put me in touch with your brake maestro that would be great.
I've still got "brake hard, brake harder.... When I tell you to brake hard, I mean brake really hard" ringing in my ears from Racing Ray at Taupo and Mansfield.
I was running near new std Porsche Boxster S pads and they worked beautifully. No problems stopping. With SRF fluid the fade was far less on the track. But boy did they wear fast! Two other boxster platform owners (Nigel Caigou and Peter Meredith) recommended Pagid Yellows which I now have installed to handle heat better and substantially longer life. When I compared prices they were only 10-20% more expensive and are more an endurance style pad!
I'll give them a month or so of daily use and may revert to just using them on track days or for a series of track days. If you can put me in touch with your brake maestro that would be great.
10-03-2013, 02:29 PM
#5173
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OK, I'll play...
1. Sorted! Picked it up today and had a lot of fun coming home. Bonus points for being able to fit a 2nd set of rims in the car without using the front seat, plus a trolley jack. Front seat for either a passenger or a spare tank of fuel... hmm, easy choice there
2&3. Kind of combined in the 964 but without the creature comforts.
1. Sorted! Picked it up today and had a lot of fun coming home. Bonus points for being able to fit a 2nd set of rims in the car without using the front seat, plus a trolley jack. Front seat for either a passenger or a spare tank of fuel... hmm, easy choice there
2&3. Kind of combined in the 964 but without the creature comforts.
10-03-2013, 05:02 PM
#5174
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Thanks Michael - thought you may appreciate the colour! The plan is definitely to take it out for twilight on the 15th and find my starting point and learn some new lines
