FredC

Streak

Nasa has a PT class that has a point system. You can do a whole lot of mods but each has a point value. Add on too many points and you go up a class. You could bolt on a turbo as long as you don't do a suspension you could stay in your class in theory.

Not a bad system. Better yet all the work is done. The organizers have almost every car and the allowable mods with points. You can build a car for HP or handling or a combination. I watch a lot of the PT races when I'm there and they are pretty good.

Not advocating a change, just looking at another series. I'd be in PTD because of my air dam. That would be a hoot because I'd be the PTD champion without question. I say this with full confidence as I think I'd be the only car running in PTD

Streak

First, Fred is no cheater. Fred is simply bat **** freakin insane in a car. Anyone who has ever been on the track with him knows it. Mammoth sized nads or a liberating ability to cheat death. Whatever, it translates to speed and control few of us here can match.

Don, lots of factors from year to year regarding lap times. I've been to Summit Point a whole lot and there are times when the track is just slow. At SP that could mean 1 to 2 seconds. On a track as long as VIR that may mean 3 or 4 seconds. It happens. Clean track thanks to a hurricane? Boiling heat? Who knows. Is there cheating? Of course. Is there a lot of cheating? I don't think there's a lot of it.

I will say that since I've started racing I have dropped lap times dramatically. I'm a mid pack driver at this point but in one weekend, my first race weekend at VIR, I lowered my lap times by 7 seconds with some help from a coach. At WG I dropped my times by 4 seconds in my first race weekend. Racing just makes you faster. Even with those improvements there is a whole lot of time out there. FredC has me in his D car by 5 seconds at the Glen. Seat time, coaching and car prep.

Bryan, the car in question must weigh 2906 lbs for E Stock. That's really heavy. Any Nasa class is going to allow you to remove at a minimum 100 lbs from the car. I can run at 2735 lbs in Nasa but must run at 2812 in PCA.

Having to ballast up for Nasa from PCA is cause for question. By all calculations, his "stock" HP was near 210 at the wheel. That's running real strong for a stock 3.2 Carrera.

Maybe he got a bad dyno. I don't know of a chip on the market that gives you 25 rwp but if he found one I'd like to buy it

Just some observations.

Bryan Watts

Custom tuned chip on a balanced/blueprinted motor...25 doesn't sound unreasonable. Similar, if not larger jumps, are seen in IT cars in SCCA. Don't think in terms of "off the shelf" parts when it comes to cars in the pointy end of the field.

Gary R.

I remember that coaches advice.... He told you that using the hourglass wasn't as accurate as a stopwatch.


STREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Streak

Kinda my point. Remember that the PCA class in question is stock. Mods like that aren't going to be undone from weekend to weekend depending on which club you are running with.

Streak

HEY!

GAAAAARRRRRREEEEEEE!

Bryan Watts

Is there something in Stock PCA rules that prevents a balance/blueprint and a custom tuned chip? Those are pretty standard mods for stock classes in SCCA and BMW CCA.

I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).

Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.

Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.

And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.

Chris M.

Chips are not allowed in PCA stock classes, but are in prepared.

Streak

No chips and your earlier post also indicated to "not think of off the shelf parts" with respect to rebuilding the engine to get 25 hp. Stock = Off the Shelf. Stock means the way it was delivered from the factory. Heck, we just got permission to use camber plates. Only suspension upgrades we can make are T-bars and shocks. No geometry changes. PCA really wants the car stock. Maybe it's possible but for a stock motor to gain that kind of hp it's going to invite scrutiny. I'm no mechanic but doesn't seem possible to me and remain stock.

Sean F

Ain't that the truth

Gary R.

Bryan Watts

If the rules allow machining to balance (they do), and you rebuild the motor with all stock parts to stock specifications (blueprinting), it's STOCK. There's "stock" and then there's optimized "stock". Unless you require sealed from the factory motors, there's nothing keeping someone from buying 30 pistons and choosing the lightest 6, or the 6 with the highest compression ratio out of the bunch...they are all stock, but even high quality stock parts are built within tolerances and some stock parts are better than others. That can be done for every part in the motor...the lightest crank, the lightest rods, etc. The goal is to maximize the motor within the factory tolerances. There's no part in the motor that's not stock...they just happen to be the best combination of stock parts possible. Happens all of the time in SCCA Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, etc.

My comment about "off the shelf" was in reference to chips mostly (but also to any other parts that can be changed...looks like air filter is open as are the headers and exhaust), as you mentioned wanting to be able to buy one that gives you a 25 hp jump. I misread and assumed that you were indicating chips were legal in Stock class.

A brief look at the rules and it seems a legal stock motor can be balanced & blueprinted. You can do some custom work from the intake filter and forward (rather than sticking an off-the-shelf air filter on). Your exhaust and headers are wide open...lots of potential there. AC belts can be removed. Valve springs are free. Clutch and flywheel can be replaced with lighter parts. I could see a really good engine builder who spends a little time dyno testing some exhaust/intake mods, extracting 25 hp out of that on a 3.0+ liter motor. It's all about optimizing the tiny details and it will all start to add up.

APKhaos

Brian is right, of course. There's a huge difference between an engine built as a DIY project from whatever stock parts arrive in the box and a high dollar stock engine rebuild by a guy that makes his living producing winning engines.

Carefully selected and matched stock parts, closely controlled tolerance management etc are part of the process. Just reducing friction by building an engine at the 'loose' end of the tolerance range for rotating parts can make a big difference. That engine won't have anything like the service life of an engine built tight, but for some people that's a price they are prepared to pay.

Chris M.

Scroll down for the dyno of such an engine, which happens to be built built by one of PCA's scrutineers. A custom stock Euro SC with 210rwhp, as opposed to the factory stock 204 flywheel hp.