I am sad to say.......
#151
Drifting
Who accused Fred? I certainly did not. In my original post I just used "D" as an example: reread it if necessary. I just as easily could have said E,F,G,H,etc... ....... I apologize if my post caused any grief. As I stated earlier, it was not directed at anyone here, especially Fred.
Adam
Adam
#152
Perfect Angel
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Not a bad system. Better yet all the work is done. The organizers have almost every car and the allowable mods with points. You can build a car for HP or handling or a combination. I watch a lot of the PT races when I'm there and they are pretty good.
Not advocating a change, just looking at another series. I'd be in PTD because of my air dam. That would be a hoot because I'd be the PTD champion without question. I say this with full confidence as I think I'd be the only car running in PTD
#153
Perfect Angel
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What if the guy has a perfectly legal PCA motor but has to add weight to run in his NASA class but can remove the weight to race in PCA? What if he runs a different tune in NASA than in PCA in order to lower his power to fit into the power/weight class?
We have run 1:58's in BMW CCA and 2:02's in NASA GTS4...but we also detune the motor, add a little weight, and run R-comp tires to fit into the NASA power/weight classing structure whereas we can run the motor at full power, without any weight restrictions, and on slicks in our BMW CCA class.
I don't see the change in laptimes between NASA and PCA as an indicator of cheating unless I'm missing some detail about this particular car/class that isn't obvious to me.
We have run 1:58's in BMW CCA and 2:02's in NASA GTS4...but we also detune the motor, add a little weight, and run R-comp tires to fit into the NASA power/weight classing structure whereas we can run the motor at full power, without any weight restrictions, and on slicks in our BMW CCA class.
I don't see the change in laptimes between NASA and PCA as an indicator of cheating unless I'm missing some detail about this particular car/class that isn't obvious to me.
Don, lots of factors from year to year regarding lap times. I've been to Summit Point a whole lot and there are times when the track is just slow. At SP that could mean 1 to 2 seconds. On a track as long as VIR that may mean 3 or 4 seconds. It happens. Clean track thanks to a hurricane? Boiling heat? Who knows. Is there cheating? Of course. Is there a lot of cheating? I don't think there's a lot of it.
I will say that since I've started racing I have dropped lap times dramatically. I'm a mid pack driver at this point but in one weekend, my first race weekend at VIR, I lowered my lap times by 7 seconds with some help from a coach. At WG I dropped my times by 4 seconds in my first race weekend. Racing just makes you faster. Even with those improvements there is a whole lot of time out there. FredC has me in his D car by 5 seconds at the Glen. Seat time, coaching and car prep.
Bryan, the car in question must weigh 2906 lbs for E Stock. That's really heavy. Any Nasa class is going to allow you to remove at a minimum 100 lbs from the car. I can run at 2735 lbs in Nasa but must run at 2812 in PCA.
Having to ballast up for Nasa from PCA is cause for question. By all calculations, his "stock" HP was near 210 at the wheel. That's running real strong for a stock 3.2 Carrera.
Maybe he got a bad dyno. I don't know of a chip on the market that gives you 25 rwp but if he found one I'd like to buy it
Just some observations.
#154
Drifting
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Custom tuned chip on a balanced/blueprinted motor...25 doesn't sound unreasonable. Similar, if not larger jumps, are seen in IT cars in SCCA. Don't think in terms of "off the shelf" parts when it comes to cars in the pointy end of the field.
#156
Perfect Angel
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Kinda my point. Remember that the PCA class in question is stock. Mods like that aren't going to be undone from weekend to weekend depending on which club you are running with.
#158
Drifting
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I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).
Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.
Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.
And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.
#159
Rennlist Member
Is there something in Stock PCA rules that prevents a balance/blueprint and a custom tuned chip? Those are pretty standard mods for stock classes in SCCA and BMW CCA.
I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).
Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.
Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.
And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.
I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).
Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.
Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.
And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.
#160
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
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Is there something in Stock PCA rules that prevents a balance/blueprint and a custom tuned chip? Those are pretty standard mods for stock classes in SCCA and BMW CCA.
I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).
Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.
Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.
And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.
I assumed chips were allowed since you mentioned wanting one that would get you 25 hp, but I'm not clear what a "KLR" chip is:
C. Electronic fuel injection must retain stock DME and KLR chip (if applicable).
Edit: Sounds like a KLR chip has something to do with turbo cars. Is the normal DME chip free to be changed in Stock class? Regardless, chips are easy to change if it's a question of changing back and forth from PCA to NASA. We regularly change our tuning depending on the class we are running in NASA or BMW CCA...or even if it's raining.
Looks like balancing is perfectly fine:
F. Machining for balancing purposes only is allowed.
And blueprinting must be legal because it's simply rebuilding the motor with matched stock parts to stock specifications.
#163
Drifting
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Stock means the way it was delivered from the factory. Heck, we just got permission to use camber plates. Only suspension upgrades we can make are T-bars and shocks. No geometry changes. PCA really wants the car stock. Maybe it's possible but for a stock motor to gain that kind of hp it's going to invite scrutiny. I'm no mechanic but doesn't seem possible to me and remain stock.
My comment about "off the shelf" was in reference to chips mostly (but also to any other parts that can be changed...looks like air filter is open as are the headers and exhaust), as you mentioned wanting to be able to buy one that gives you a 25 hp jump. I misread and assumed that you were indicating chips were legal in Stock class.
A brief look at the rules and it seems a legal stock motor can be balanced & blueprinted. You can do some custom work from the intake filter and forward (rather than sticking an off-the-shelf air filter on). Your exhaust and headers are wide open...lots of potential there. AC belts can be removed. Valve springs are free. Clutch and flywheel can be replaced with lighter parts. I could see a really good engine builder who spends a little time dyno testing some exhaust/intake mods, extracting 25 hp out of that on a 3.0+ liter motor. It's all about optimizing the tiny details and it will all start to add up.
#164
Brian is right, of course. There's a huge difference between an engine built as a DIY project from whatever stock parts arrive in the box and a high dollar stock engine rebuild by a guy that makes his living producing winning engines.
Carefully selected and matched stock parts, closely controlled tolerance management etc are part of the process. Just reducing friction by building an engine at the 'loose' end of the tolerance range for rotating parts can make a big difference. That engine won't have anything like the service life of an engine built tight, but for some people that's a price they are prepared to pay.
Carefully selected and matched stock parts, closely controlled tolerance management etc are part of the process. Just reducing friction by building an engine at the 'loose' end of the tolerance range for rotating parts can make a big difference. That engine won't have anything like the service life of an engine built tight, but for some people that's a price they are prepared to pay.
#165
Rennlist Member
No chips and your earlier post also indicated to "not think of off the shelf parts" with respect to rebuilding the engine to get 25 hp. Stock = Off the Shelf. Stock means the way it was delivered from the factory. Heck, we just got permission to use camber plates. Only suspension upgrades we can make are T-bars and shocks. No geometry changes. PCA really wants the car stock. Maybe it's possible but for a stock motor to gain that kind of hp it's going to invite scrutiny. I'm no mechanic but doesn't seem possible to me and remain stock.