Veloce Raptor

I agree about courtesy, and it is 2 ways, you're right.

I guess I am a bit incredulous that you would even consider punting someone over them missing an opportunity to be "courteous" in your definition of the word, in a 13-13 club racing event.

Again, am I missing something here? I hope I am grossly misunderstanding...

Have I raced? Um...yeah....

SundayDrover...LMAO!!

Larry Herman

Before we go and kill Scotto, I think that he is echoing a little frustration that we all have felt. I know it's not politically correct, and I do have patience, but there are times that if we were pro racing I'd punt someone's sorry *** off the track. The 13/13 rule does not give people the impunity to block the track; you have to give racing room. Punting is making your own racing room for what should have been given to begin with.

Veloce Raptor

Larry, I understand the frustration. I have been on both ends of it, probably, and I have always tried to give and earn courtesy.

But if a racer cannot contain their emotions w/o resorting to purposeful contact, they should NOT be on track, especially in a 13-13 club (read: FUN) event. Even in the pros, officials are finally coming down hard on the assclowns who use the Chrome Horn.

Again, I hope I misread Bob's sentiment here, for his sake, especially since so many PCA Club Racing officials read this forum...

It is funny that he would ask if I have raced, though, and Mark is a crack-up.

JPhillips-998

If they are truly a faster car and have come up on you, they don't know what your "normal" line is but the will recognize an "opportunity". Make that opportunity available and they'll get by without doing much damage to your lap.

Can you back off a bit on entry to give the corner? Brake early, or brush the brakes to give a signal? Give more room than usual at the apex? That is how I do it. If timing is right, I will back off on the straight to let the pass happen then I can get my momentum back for the corner.

Veloce Raptor

See, that makes sense, Jeff. But I am concerned that, in the way I understand Bob's comments, were you not to display this courtesy soon enough, he would punt you. Hopefully, Bob will help us understand what he really means.

JPhillips-998

Well, if someone is that damn much faster than me there should be no reason EVER for a punt. For some to think it tells me a lot about the person.

I really think we are talking about fractions here. Slight lift, they're faster, they'll be by. A bit wider, a bit early on brakes. I am not going to give up an apex if I have the corner, let superdude drove around the outside and show me what he has...I don't owe him anything on the track b/c he has a faster car.

Out of courtesy I will create an opportunity for a faster car once, maybe twice if I feel they weren't ready or it was a bad section of the track. After that, they can whine all they want about me but it is their job to drive and get by. My presumption is faster is bigger $$$$. RETRIBUTION, while it ranks right up there with punting, is another option.

Larry Herman

Interesting what you say here Jeff. For one who has had to go to the inside on the grass, around the outside, and up the middle to get by cars that were absolutely in the way, I'm suggesting that you might want to consider the other viewpoint.

If I can and do go around you on the outside, shouldn't you have let me by on the inside? It only means that I was much faster than you were, and I could have gotten by inside in a flash, rather than risking my car and yours by taking the outside line.

After all, this is racing, not DEs. I am so amused when I hear DE drivers bitch that they were held up for a few corners. I guess that it cost them the session. I have been in more than a few races where one bobble, one block, one anything has cost a position. And no, it's not the end of the world, but I don't know anyone who's racing for last (except Mike F ).

carreracup21

I definetely see where Bob is coming from and honestly the vast majority of PCA racers do an excellent job of driving with a high level of situational awarness. I was always impressed with just how well things seemed to work out there at high speed and in tight traffic. In a heated race for position with someone on your rear bumper trying to beat you, its easy to get frustrated with someone holding you up from the front or not paying attention. That being said, it makes a wonderful pick opportunity for the guy trying to pass you. It's all racing and part of the game.

JPhillips-998

Larry, my point is that an aware driver, both being overtaken and overtaking, will be able to make a pass without risk or risky moves. I too have had to make passes on the grass, strattling curbs, in the marbles, etc, but in those instances, I felt comfortable doing so. I did not expect the other driver to give way in the middle of a corner.

When drivers say "be predictable" it means don't go for an apex, realize that you are being passed and move to the outside. THAT is where the trouble begins...making unexpected moves to allow someone through. I will typically take a corner wide and give room inside if the pass is not done at entry, however, if I am going for an apex, it is mine. If you want to pass outside, go for it. Neither of us want me to "move out of your way" or likely into your way out of courtesy.

If the pass isn't done by the apex or entry to the apex the overtaking driver has to assume an outside or off-line pass. The overtaken driver owns the corner, has every right to the corner and can best server everyone if they stick to their line.

The overtaking driver has the option of waiting until track out or making the offline pass. Both drivers are racing and both have the same rights. I would not expect an apex from an underclass car, I would make a decision on whether I can make a safe offline pass, if so, go for it...if not, I have to wait the 2/10's until track out. Hopefully my competition will make the same decision and there is no harm to anyone.

boqueron

So.... Which are...the rules ( if any ) ?
From what I have read in this - extremely interesting - thread, all is left to the final driver's decision...

I have also been discussing this mater with my group of( up to 30) fellow track drivers,...Without any conclusion.. In our case it should be easy knowing each other ( more or less) as we usually go together to the same tracks that are rented for ourselves...I would love to find a simple guide with 3 fudamentals on "How to"...

Gary R.

I really don't think Scotto meant to imply he would do anything stupid out there and I believe the simple point is some need to have better situational awareness and courtesy for your fellow drivers.

fstockcarrera

Veloce, You obviously don't understand where I or Larry are coming from. Yep Yep Yep Punting a droving skill that I have yet to learn from thar Roundy Roundy guys. Yep that's what I was talking about. Not.


Spend some time leading a race with your competitor in your back seat. All We are asking for is a little curiosity as we lap you. Is it expected NO. Appreciated YES. This is not a fine point of racing.

Flame away

jerome951

I didn't race at LRP, but were the flaggers aggressive w/ the blue flags?

I'm a backmarker, and my minimal PCA CR experience (Summit and Mid-O) has been that I'm shown the passing flag at least a corner before the leaders come screaming up behind me. I expect it so politely step aside (with a point-by) as the leaders storm by.

If cars being lapped aren't aware you as a leader are coming, especially if you are in a battle for your class lead, then IMHO the flaggers are as much to blame as the lapper and lappee if either party is surprised by the situation.

Bob, thanks for putting a pic of the front of your car in your avatar. I'll be sure to look for it as you lap me should we ever share the track together.

Veloce Raptor

No flames, Bob. All I was asking for was you to explain what you meant. A reasonable person, reading the following, might definitely come to the same conclusion that I did--you were threatening/promising to punt:

But Since I might be in a hurry How easy he survives the corner depends on his consideration of the passing car. If you make the passing car FORCE the pass both will be slower and someone may end up in the grass or worse.

How easy he "survives the corner"? "May end up in the grass"?

How would YOU read those, Bob?

Also, please do not presume to lecture me or anybody else who races about racing. I have not done so to you, despite your comments above. Your condescending manner adds nothing, and makes your argument look weak.

RSRRacer

Are some of you guys honestly discussing technique for passing a car that is a lap down? Geez, take of your skirt and just get it done already.

Besides refraining from blocking or other rule infractions, no one owes you a thing on the track. Even the slowest guy out there has every right to not only hold his line but if he can make it hard for you to pass in the process.

If you have earned the respect of other drivers they will move over for you.

Now, that being said, I have been known to give a few "hand signals" to some less than courteous folks as I pass. But truth be told it was most often my own fault that I didn't get by sooner.