fstockcarrera

Well not exactly wrong it does not facilitate the pass and if I were in a close heated race I'm not likely to be patient enought and risk 1st or 2nd place.

bob

MJR911

I feel your pain Bob. I lost 4th position in a tight SM race this past weekend b/c another SM that we were LAPPING (nearly identical cars!) parked it in 10 at Summit and was completely irrational. Other than knowing the guys you're out there with, and their reputations, its just another way in which "great club" racers will separate themselves from "decent club" racers. All about racecraft, which is what adds fun for me... not quite all the time.

In PCA i've been all out blocked by lapped cars, chopped, etc. The fact that you can go from DE to "racing" as well as be thrown out for ANY contact is never going to help situations. But spreading the word on etiquette can't hurt.

Sean F

This brings to mind a subject that has been discussed several times before. Should PCA have a race school? I'm of the opinion they should. Otherwise, the only way these things are learned is on track during a race and after the race when a more experienced racer finds the offender in the paddock and says "what the hell were you doing out there". The video that Charlie posted of the LRP race with Bob getting stuck behind the 944 turbo in the downhill is a good example. Was he going to stay on the line and track out normally or stay inside and let Bob track out? He stayed inside when it looked like Bob thought he would track out. Which was the right thing to do? Shouldn't there be a standard so some of the guesswork goes away?

dsmith

Sean, when you do your first few races, you'll quickly decide how much body work you want to risk. That will determine how you decide to handle traffic, faster/slower cars and race starts.

My race group has a huge speed disparity. Spec RX7's to Baby Grands to Super Production and all Improved Touring cars. Lots of practice letting faster cars by! I've found it most comfortable to let people by on the straight. If they can't motor by, then I lift enough for a clean pass. I don't need anything "interesting" to happen in a corner with a car in another class.

Ex: When I raced my Spec RX7, there were and still are several ITA RX7s also. We were all very close in times. I was a bit faster than the 2 ITA cars in front, but passing them would have been a major hassle and staying in front of them would not have gained any class positions for me. I just stuck my nose in here and there for fun, but they were banging into each other pretty often, so I backed off not to get collected in their racing.
David

MJR911

Sean,
there is no 100% correct answer to that question. the BEST thing would have been for the 944 driver to point by on one side. Still the overtaking cars' responsibility.

fstockcarrera

I like to believe he was trying to get out of the way. He should have yielded the apex and tracked out normally. It easy to discern that a driver is yielding to you, both motions yield the normal passing lane. I use point by's to faster cars extensively in a race so there is no confusion.

Bob

M758

No, but if you see a car coming with a head of steam just before you are about to turn and they will be there as you turn in you can point and delay turn in for a slight bit allowing them to shoot through and then you slot in right in their bumper. You lose very little speed and they lose very little speed. Works great when you can do it. Point by's help alot here.

Sean F

Gotcha...thanks guys

Larry Herman

Sean, this is where judgement comes it, and if you are thinking along those lines, you will develop it. You need to make that determination as to whether you will lead the closing car all the way through the turn, or hold them up before you ever get to the apex. Sometimes they will make it easier on you because they can see how fast they are closing, and will move over to take the inside in the braking zone. That is where most of the "chops" occur. If you just slow a little more, and maybe drive a little later apex, they will take the line and you can tuck in right behind them bury the throttle and stay on their bumper all the way up the next straight (or till your HP runs out )

Don't construe this to be changing your line, or being unpredictable. It is more like understanding your role, and being cooperative. If you see the need to slow, or move off-line, then signal! Sometimes you will see 2 or even 3 cars locked in a battle as you all approach a turn. The best thing that you could do is to point them by to the inside and back off a little sooner, and they all should file by to the inside, hopefully slowing you down very little.

As a side-bar, most of the outside passes occur because the faster car catches the slower one at a corner, and the slower car just takes the apex rather than allowing a pass. The faster car has to either stop, or go around on the outside. Once past, that faster car has messed up the track out for the slower car, and cost them more down the next straight than if they had just let them by in the beginning.

Veloce Raptor

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y

TD in DC

Thanks for a great thread.

Although I do not cause the types of problems being discussed here, it is great to hear people with more experience share their thoughts.

It is funny how little newbies are really told about racecraft when you begin. It seems like one of those things that you just have to DO, and hopefully you are smart and aware enough that you catch on quickly.

I used to be too polite to everyone in cars that were in faster classes than I am. I quickly learned that this is a huge mistake, because some people in higher classes with faster cars are not faster than you are. If you let them by too easily, they can really mess up your race because it is damned hard to pass a faster car that his significantly faster if you are in a momentum car, or so it seems to me. So, you try to pass them in the corners, and if you can't pull it off, they leave you on the straights and then you catch them in the next braking zone, where it is anchor's away again.

That said, after about the first lap or two in the race, it becomes very clear who is fast and who is not. If someone is coming up fast behind me (as anyone who is really "lapping" me will be, they get by me (usually with a point by). I don't really want to go off line to get them around, but I guess I would if the circumstances so warranted. Most cars are significantly faster than mine, so I don't think anyone has a problem getting around me.

Edit:

What about the etiquette of "interesting corners"? Specifically, I don't really like anyone trying to pass me at the apex of T9 at Summit Point. I usually do pretty well through carousel, and I don't think I hold anyone in my rungroup up there. I don't want someone to dive into the inside of T9, though, because it can be a little dangerous, but more importantly I don't want to lose my momentum going up that hill. So, I usually stay towards the middle of T8 into T9 so that nobody can take that away from me. Shouldn't hurt anyone though because they can pass as soon as I head towards trackout. I am NOT talking about blocking, because my line is consistent through that part (and significantly faster cars can get around me in the carousel if they want). I just don't see why I should screw up my own race just so a car in a different class can get by me 1 second faster than they will already. Thoughts? (PS, if there is a faster car behind me entering T9, I usually point by as soon as the car is settled -- which is before I actually hit trackout).

M758

As I think more about this thread two things come to mind.

1) Racers need to in practice sessions think about which are the slow / fast cars in the run group. Get familier with were the easy places to pass/be passsed are so that you lose the least speed. There are places where I NEVER give point bys and pretty much say "tough luck" to any faster car behind me. Those places are such that I don't give up much speed, it would cost me a TON to give up these ares, and the track/line is just not wide enough. Other places I know are easy to let cars by. This is important as slower car and faster car as in the fast car you also need to learn where are the "best places" to over take traffic. Learn to do this in race practice where the stakes are not as high and it will be easier come race time.

2) It would help if the highest PCA DE groups had open passing. If the highest PCA DE groups had open passing alot of these passing in corner situations with newbies would be improved since they would be comfortable with passing in corner long before they considered constesting corners in race.

chrisp

At every level the PCA party line is the passing car goes off-line. If you want newbie racers to drive counter to that you should probably focus on educating them earlier in the process. There's a lot going on for a newbie racer and it's probably best for them to stay on line. Agreed, more can be done before the corner to prevent the situation from happening in the first place.

M758

It still is the party line in racing. However there are smart ways to do this and dumb ways as well. How a slower car handles a faster overtaking lap car is very very situationally dependant. Rarely if ever should the slower car move offline, but there are ways to adjust your line slightly to make it easier for the fast car to get through. Those adjustments are very sutble. I don't support the F1 style "get the f#ck out of my way" stuff with cars diving in all directions to aviod the overtaking car, but an experienced racer knows alot of small subtle adjustments they can make to make things flow very smoothly.

Larry Herman

I think that this begs the question then:

Is backing off the gas a little sooner, and delaying your turn-in just a fraction (so that a passing car can easily take the inside line) constitute "changing your line"?

I don't feel that it does.