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Thanks, Peter. I wasn't sure what values were considered 'good', but I think I did well here in my spec Miata. I'll do a more detailed review when I get some time, but this device definitely helps with keeping the times consistent.
One more thing, I think you are ideally positioned to move forward and evaluate with good numbers what you're doing. RARELY are people as consistent as you, which means you're doing the SAME thing, at the SAME place, with the SAME speed and amplitude of control inputs.
Bravo!
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
But, as a professional coach, I would also begin to question whether or not you are driving to rote, a particular comfort level, or just very set and consistent in your executions.
That is a GOOD thing.
But, until you focus on working on one specific skill execution in one or two areas of the track at a time, or one corner or corner complex AND begin to formulate a prime and optional approach, practice enough to get good at both and then MEASURE it with this, you may remain "stuck" in the larger measure of total lap times.
Interesting, Joe's optimal lap is almost a second faster than his best lap and yet the variance as measured it still really low?
But, as a professional coach, I would also begin to question whether or not you are driving to rote, a particular comfort level, or just very set and consistent in your executions.
That is a GOOD thing.
But, until you focus on working on one specific skill execution in one or two areas of the track at a time, or one corner or corner complex AND begin to formulate a prime and optional approach, practice enough to get good at both and then MEASURE it with this, you may remain "stuck" in the larger measure of total lap times.
I think you're right about BOTH. In ideal conditions I can throw down great laps, but once conditions start to change whether it be the track surface, air temp, or tires, I tend to repeat the same thing which is no longer ideal with the condition change. I've found that the catalyst is actually helping me with that.
Originally Posted by ProCoach
One more thing, I think you are ideally positioned to move forward and evaluate with good numbers what you're doing. RARELY are people as consistent as you, which means you're doing the SAME thing, at the SAME place, with the SAME speed and amplitude of control inputs.
Bravo!
Thanks!
Originally Posted by tgibrit
Interesting, Joe's optimal lap is almost a second faster than his best lap and yet the variance as measured it still really low?
Yeah I noticed that too and thought it was odd. All 3 full sessions I ran had low var rates, though.
The variation is of statistical interest, but the spread between the best and optimal is of real value.
What a lot of data geeks have known for decades is that the theoretical (Traqmate and AIM), ideal (VBOX) or eclectic (MoTeC) lap is simply not possible, because it’s simple addition of all the fastest sectors.
What is different about the Garmin calculation is that with the neural network, sector generation and AI accepting and rejecting adjoining sectors, as it recognizes what is and is not possible as valid or not, the optimal lap calculation time display and MOST importantly the stitched together COMPLETE optimal lap video is now of REAL value.
There aere some "gems" related to install, in this thread. Not that it's that complex....but short cuts and tips are always appreciated.
I just fired mine up today, went as far as I could, not having access to the car...the hardware install is next week. Once I reset my pass word, I must have had a Garmin password years
ago....a Garmin GPS I believe, I was good to go. I have downloaded the lates software.....
It defaulted to GRAND PRIX OF LONG BEACH, where I got the weather....nice touch!
Well, I've been following this thread since I learned of the catalyst. I was initially skeptical that it would have anything to offer someone who sifts through data constantly, but the more I read, the more interested I became.
As a background intro, I've been a rennlister since 2010, but most of my time was spent in the 987/991GT3/GT4 forums since I did track days mostly. 3 years ago I moved on to club racing and have been racing with SCCA in spec miata. At this point I would consider myself a competitive regional level driver as I consistently finish at the podium and have won 6 out of the 10 races so far this year. My goal is to become a competitive national level driver and that is going to require me to find that last tenth per corner consistently. I want the garmin to help me do that.
I'm a data and video freak. My car currently has an AiM MXL2 system, AiM smarty cam, AiM solo2 DL, 3 Sony action cams, and now the garmin catalyst. This brings me up to a ridiculous number of 5 cameras in my car and 3 data collecting systems. The point is, I love this kind of stuff.
I tested the catalyst at Thunderhill last week and came away impressed. What surprised me that most was that the audio coaching was by far the most valuable feature for me. I thought the coaching would be junk and generic and it is NOT. It doesn't blurt out the same generic commands over and over. It can change with each lap for the same corner depending on what you did. It will change as the conditions on the track and your tires change. It's not just brake earlier or later. It's also shorter braking or longer brake, brake harder or brake less. All important distinctions. What I found to be just as helpful was the 'scoring' of the turn after you complete it. 'Keep pushing' means you blew it. 'New best' for the corner is a great thing to know and something to put into the mental bank. 'Above average' is just as useful to know as well so you know you're doing the right thing and improving. As much as I love the green LED lights on the solo2, this is just as useful if not more. The catalyst will nudge you to try something slightly different instead of you trying to the same thing over and over 'better'.
The next valuable tool is the post session opportunities. The information presented well and really makes you think about the corner, confirm your thoughts on how to manage it faster, or how to try it differently. I've been trying to work on my braking and corner entry speed. It's the hardest thing to do well and yields less time than exit, but my exits are usually fine and the last bit of fruit to find is always in braking and corner entry.
What I found to be the least useful for me was the optimal lap video. No sound, so you can't hear when you're on/off the throttle. Also, my laps are very close together in execution, so it's really hard to tell any differences on video.
I fully agree that the catalyst should be considered a supplement to traditional data systems. During my sessions I would still download my data, review, and pick up points that the catalyst can't convey. I would not trade one for another. I would want both.
As far as quirks/failures, During my 2nd session the catalyst just stopped working in the middle of the session. I ran my fastest lap of the day, continued to drive, but no audio cues came. I looked down and the device was not in recording mode anymore. This happened once during the day. There are some prompts that you have to take with a grain of salt and just do it in order to convince the device that it's not a good idea. The catalyst wanted me to drive over the apex of T5 which has a very large berm that unsettles the car. It's not a good a idea to blast through that as shown in this video I was able to capture a few years ago:
I purposely rode the berm a small bit to satisfy the device and it never told me to do that again. LOL. Impressive to me that it learned doing that is not a good idea for the car. Can't say the same for the driver in the above video as he kept doing that over and over. LOL.
Below is video from 2 of the full sessions I was able to utilize the catalyst. Amazingly few cars on track, so lot's of open space to get clean laps. Despite 90F temps and tires with double digit heat cycles that were bald by the 2nd video posted here, my lap times were very consistent and not horribly slow.
This video is the first full session. Consistent times within tenths except for one lap with traffic. Data overlay using race render and I also recorded the audio from the catalyst using a 3.5mm splitter that went into the external mic port in my sony action cam so you can hear the prompts. It takes about 3 laps before the prompts start coming in because it's the first session running the device.
2nd video is the very last session of the day. Prompts come in right away now since the device has memory and learned your driving. Hottest 90+F temps and tires pretty much done. Each successive lap went faster and faster as I followed the finely tuned directions from the garmin at this point. In prior sessions, my AiM data review showed me that my speed through T3/T4 was much lower than what I usually do. It's been 6 months since I've driven at Thunderhill so I forgot some of ideal ways to manage this section. The catalyst suggested I apex T4 earlier and sure enough it got me back to the speeds that I ran though that corner back in March in post session data review.
Did it coach me to a personal best? No, but that is NOT a failure. What was more important was that it made me shift the way I thought I should be approaching the corners and it proved to me that it was faster/better. I'm pretty sure it won't be a win for everyone because everyone processes things differently, but for me the catalyst is a win. Thanks to Peter for getting me the device quickly!
Well, I've been following this thread since I learned of the catalyst. I was initially skeptical that it would have anything to offer someone who sifts through data constantly, but the more I read, the more interested I became.
As a background intro, I've been a rennlister since 2010, but most of my time was spent in the 987/991GT3/GT4 forums since I did track days mostly. 3 years ago I moved on to club racing and have been racing with SCCA in spec miata. At this point I would consider myself a competitive regional level driver as I consistently finish at the podium and have won 6 out of the 10 races so far this year. My goal is to become a competitive national level driver and that is going to require me to find that last tenth per corner consistently. I want the garmin to help me do that.
I'm a data and video freak. My car currently has an AiM MXL2 system, AiM smarty cam, AiM solo2 DL, 3 Sony action cams, and now the garmin catalyst. This brings me up to a ridiculous number of 5 cameras in my car and 3 data collecting systems. The point is, I love this kind of stuff.
I tested the catalyst at Thunderhill last week and came away impressed. What surprised me that most was that the audio coaching was by far the most valuable feature for me. I thought the coaching would be junk and generic and it is NOT. It doesn't blurt out the same generic commands over and over. It can change with each lap for the same corner depending on what you did. It will change as the conditions on the track and your tires change. It's not just brake earlier or later. It's also shorter braking or longer brake, brake harder or brake less. All important distinctions. What I found to be just as helpful was the 'scoring' of the turn after you complete it. 'Keep pushing' means you blew it. 'New best' for the corner is a great thing to know and something to put into the mental bank. 'Above average' is just as useful to know as well so you know you're doing the right thing and improving. As much as I love the green LED lights on the solo2, this is just as useful if not more. The catalyst will nudge you to try something slightly different instead of you trying to the same thing over and over 'better'.
The next valuable tool is the post session opportunities. The information presented well and really makes you think about the corner, confirm your thoughts on how to manage it faster, or how to try it differently. I've been trying to work on my braking and corner entry speed. It's the hardest thing to do well and yields less time than exit, but my exits are usually fine and the last bit of fruit to find is always in braking and corner entry.
What I found to be the least useful for me was the optimal lap video. No sound, so you can't hear when you're on/off the throttle. Also, my laps are very close together in execution, so it's really hard to tell any differences on video.
I fully agree that the catalyst should be considered a supplement to traditional data systems. During my sessions I would still download my data, review, and pick up points that the catalyst can't convey. I would not trade one for another. I would want both.
As far as quirks/failures, During my 2nd session the catalyst just stopped working in the middle of the session. I ran my fastest lap of the day, continued to drive, but no audio cues came. I looked down and the device was not in recording mode anymore. This happened once during the day. There are some prompts that you have to take with a grain of salt and just do it in order to convince the device that it's not a good idea. The catalyst wanted me to drive over the apex of T5 which has a very large berm that unsettles the car. It's not a good a idea to blast through that as shown in this video I was able to capture a few years ago:
I purposely rode the berm a small bit to satisfy the device and it never told me to do that again. LOL. Impressive to me that it learned doing that is not a good idea for the car. Can't say the same for the driver in the above video as he kept doing that over and over. LOL.
Below is video from 2 of the full sessions I was able to utilize the catalyst. Amazingly few cars on track, so lot's of open space to get clean laps. Despite 90F temps and tires with double digit heat cycles that were bald by the 2nd video posted here, my lap times were very consistent and not horribly slow.
This video is the first full session. Consistent times within tenths except for one lap with traffic. Data overlay using race render and I also recorded the audio from the catalyst using a 3.5mm splitter that went into the external mic port in my sony action cam so you can hear the prompts. It takes about 3 laps before the prompts start coming in because it's the first session running the device.
2nd video is the very last session of the day. Prompts come in right away now since the device has memory and learned your driving. Hottest 90+F temps and tires pretty much done. Each successive lap went faster and faster as I followed the finely tuned directions from the garmin at this point. In prior sessions, my AiM data review showed me that my speed through T3/T4 was much lower that what I usually do. It's been 6 months since I've driven at Thunderhill so I forgot some of ideal ways to manage this section. The catalyst suggested I apex T4 earlier and sure enough it got me back to the speeds that I ran though that corner back in March in post session data review.
Did it coach me to a personal best? No, but that is NOT a failure. What was more important was that it made me shift the way I thought I should be approaching the corners and it proved to me that it was faster/better. I'm pretty sure it won't be a win for everyone because everyone processes things differently, but for me the catalyst is a win. Thanks to Peter for getting me the device quickly!
Fantastic and detailed review. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
Did it coach me to a personal best? No, but that is NOT a failure. What was more important was that it made me shift the way I thought I should be approaching the corners and it proved to me that it was faster/better. I'm pretty sure it won't be a win for everyone because everyone processes things differently, but for me the catalyst is a win. Thanks to Peter for getting me the device quickly!
Thanks for taking the time to write with such detail. I've followed your posts over in the GT3 section for years.
Looking forward to next season to give Catalyst a try.
Because I like to be able to save it and share it with friends and get their input.
I hear you. That is a highly requested feature as people begin to use this as their "go-to" video solution.
I do think post-session PC editing software and some more detailed data export to provide the on-screen metrics is coming.
But it will be next year and will work with current hardware.
I just asked the question because a) they're not using the video for other than the AI car positioning algorithm, b) it changes the closed ecosystem "easy" part of it to add that functionality, c) there are plenty of other ways to do that (share video with metrics) besides this one.
09-29-2020, 04:44 PM
