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What is interesting about the Laguna Seca times is that the 2017 991.2 Turbo S with Corsas is only 2.3 seconds quicker than the 992 with very shytie P Zeros. Could the 992 actually be close to the 991.2 Turbo S's time on Corsas . . . or Cups.
If I recall correctly, Pobst posted both the 992 and the 991.2 Turbo S time, but the 991.2 S time above is a mystery driver. Does anyone know who this was and what the event was?
Alas, different days, different conditions . . . cannot really compare times unless same day, same conditions and perhaps same driver . . .
What is interesting about the Laguna Seca times is that the 2017 991.2 Turbo S with Corsas is only 2.3 seconds quicker than the 992 with very shytie P Zeros. Could the 992 actually be close to the 991.2 Turbo S's time on Corsas . . . or Cups.
If I recall correctly, Pobst posted both the 992 and the 991.2 Turbo S time, but the 991.2 S time above is a mystery driver. Does anyone know who this was and what the event was?
Alas, different days, different conditions . . . cannot really compare times unless same day, same conditions and perhaps same driver . . .
If you read the article the 992 was actually slower than the 991.2 S, they put fresh tires on and Randy changed entry to one corner and posted about a 1s difference over the 991.2 S. Also when fresh the P Zero are sticky and quick for a few laps.
I thought the C8 was in this field but had things mixed up, I think its in the Road and Track field which is much more interesting.
”WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca can always be relied upon to throw a surprise during Best Driver's Car. First time out, the 992 Carrera S was two-tenths of a second slower than the 2017 model we tested three years ago. There were puzzled frowns among the Porsche technicians and surprise from Randy, who thought the car felt very quick: "I don't know the time, but I think it's going to overachieve," he said as he pulled off his helmet. "The power-down traction was fantastic."
Turn 4 was the problem. Randy acknowledged that the quick right-hander felt slipperier than usual. Next time out, he took a tighter line, where he found more grip and more midcorner speed. On a fresh set of tires, the Carrera S ran a 1:35.52 lap, nearly a second quicker than its predecessor, more than 0.6 second quicker than the next fastest car, the 630-hp Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S, and a time bested only by the mighty million-dollar McLaren Senna.”
I’d be curious in seeing Randy drive the 991.2 GTS, which is the same or similar horsepower and torque as the 992 S, but the 991.2 is lighter. That would be a better comparison of whether the improved chassis, gearbox, suspension, etc. makes a significant difference on track.
I agree driver and tires make a huge difference, so it would need to be a comparison of Randy’s times (and of course he is one of the best) or at least the same driver using same tires. I’m sure someone will make a video soon enough. Would be fun to see.
If you read the article the 992 was actually slower than the 991.2 S, they put fresh tires on and Randy changed entry to one corner and posted about a 1s difference over the 991.2 S. Also when fresh the P Zero are sticky and quick for a few laps.
I thought the C8 was in this field but had things mixed up, I think its in the Road and Track field which is much more interesting.
A second quicker is not slower and a second is an eternity in racing.
Pzeroes are trash and new tires do not automatically equate sticky tires or tires at their optimal grip level at all.
Which turn? Did he double apex or single apex 2? Just curious as raced and coached for Skippy out there for years and the racing line is the racing line out there otherwise.
Comparing runs on different days with different drivers and different conditions is what it is, but the fact remains is that the 992 has already posted a second quicker at LS than the 991.2 S could muster in anyone's hands over the last several years.
The irony in all this is who cares. 99.9% of the people posting and reading in this section of the forum are not even close to driving a 991 or 992 any where close to 9/10th or 10/10ths around a technical track like LS. After instructing Porsche owners throughout the 90s and 2000s, I would estimate that 98% could not even drive consistently at 8/10ths around LS.
”WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca can always be relied upon to throw a surprise during Best Driver's Car. First time out, the 992 Carrera S was two-tenths of a second slower than the 2017 model we tested three years ago. There were puzzled frowns among the Porsche technicians and surprise from Randy, who thought the car felt very quick: "I don't know the time, but I think it's going to overachieve," he said as he pulled off his helmet. "The power-down traction was fantastic."
Turn 4 was the problem. Randy acknowledged that the quick right-hander felt slipperier than usual. Next time out, he took a tighter line, where he found more grip and more midcorner speed. On a fresh set of tires, the Carrera S ran a 1:35.52 lap, nearly a second quicker than its predecessor, more than 0.6 second quicker than the next fastest car, the 630-hp Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S, and a time bested only by the mighty million-dollar McLaren Senna.”
I’d be curious in seeing Randy drive the 991.2 GTS, which is the same or similar horsepower and torque as the 992 S, but the 991.2 is lighter. That would be a better comparison of whether the improved chassis, gearbox, suspension, etc. makes a significant difference on track.
I agree driver and tires make a huge difference, so it would need to be a comparison of Randy’s times (and of course he is one of the best) or at least the same driver using same tires. I’m sure someone will make a video soon enough. Would be fun to see.
Lol at journalism and drama. Pobst blew a turn on a single lap . . . not that much time in 4 unless you really blow it and even a driver like Randy can blow it. Tighter line = more grip . . . funny stuff for the casual reader
Sounds like he just hit his marks on run two . . . and PCNA was [NOT] taking any chances on heat cycled or tire issues for run two even though that was probably Randy like any race car driver blaming something other than a blown line.
A second quicker is not slower and a second is an eternity in racing.
Pzeroes are trash and new tires do not automatically equate sticky tires or tires at their optimal grip level at all.
Which turn? Did he double apex or single apex 2? Just curious as raced and coached for Skippy out there for years and the racing line is the racing line out there otherwise.
Comparing runs on different days with different drivers and different conditions is what it is, but the fact remains is that the 992 has already posted a second quicker at LS than the 991.2 S could muster in anyone's hands over the last several years.
The irony in all this is who cares. 99.9% of the people posting and reading in this section of the forum are not even close to driving a 991 or 992 any where close to 9/10th or 10/10ths around a technical track like LS. After instructing Porsche owners throughout the 90s and 2000s, I would estimate that 98% could not even drive consistently at 8/10ths around LS.
Clueless - PZero are not trash - they are very sticky when fresh. LOL
They had to put fresh tires on the 992 and re-run to improve on the initial time over the 991.2 S.
You wouldn’t have a clue who could and couldn’t drive in this or any other forum - so how would you estimate?
The fact you have no idea what can be achieved on fresh P Zero relative to other tires is telling.
So for your benefit - typical peak lineal g P Zero N1 ~ 1.6, MPSC2 N1 and N2 ~ 1.6. How do I know this? 991.2S, 991.2SX51, 991.2GTS and 991.2 GT3RS - all data logged.
The other big fact you are missing is the 991.2 GTS in all testing has proved quicker than the 992 S in spite of the fact they have the same peak horsepower.
Clueless - PZero are not trash - they are very sticky when fresh. LOL
They had to put fresh tires on the 992 and re-run to improve on the initial time over the 991.2 S.
You wouldn’t have a clue who could and couldn’t drive in this or any other forum - so how would you estimate?
The fact you have no idea what can be achieved on fresh P Zero relative to other tires is telling.
So for your benefit - typical peak lineal g P Zero N1 ~ 1.6, MPSC2 N1 and N2 ~ 1.6. How do I know this? 991.2S, 991.2SX51, 991.2GTS and 991.2 GT3RS - all data logged.
The other big fact you are missing is the 991.2 GTS in all testing has proved quicker than the 992 S in spite of the fact they have the same peak horsepower.
Don't recall mentioning a GTS above. Lol, truly impressive you logged 1.6 lateral Gs in a 991.2S. That's awesome, especially on street tires! The earth must have been spinning pretty good that day.
I know a little about 911s and tires. Used to tire test, race professionally and one of the original instructors for Porsche Driving Experience. I would like to think I learned a little about tires and how to get the most out of tires and their drop off points including the PZereos.
PZeroes are decent for daily driving in all weather conditions, not so much for track duty and definitely do not compare to Corsa on track to which my comment above related.
I am about to pull a set of 8/32s and 9/32s PZereos off a 2012 GTS cabriolet I picked up 10 days ago for cruising. Be happy to send them to you if you like them so much. I don't.
RE: Peak HP
Gotta chuckle at focus on peak hp as well. Total area under the curve generally way more important, but peak nice to have track I suppose. We used to play around with Lenz stand alone fuel management systems and a host of other options on some of my older hot rodded and track 911s. We could tune and build for peak, but generally got much, much better results for sprints and track when focusing on maximizing total area under the torque/power curve.
I am about to pull a set of 8/32s and 9/32s PZereos off a 2012 GTS cabriolet I picked up 10 days ago for cruising.
I did the same with my 911. Pulled the P Zeros and replaced with PS4S N0s.
The P Zeros were a MESS as soon as it got below 70 degrees, let alone below 70 degrees and raining. Scary stuff.
The PS4S N0s are A-OK well beyond the threshold of the P Zeros, though I switch to the RE980AS sometime in November. Don't laugh at an all-season on the 911! They are superb tires in the cold and wet. We don't really get snow and our temperatures (thankfully) don't get cold enough long enough to require true winter tires.
^ I agree with this. PS4S's are leaps and bounds better than any max performance tire I've ever used in cold temps. I haven't put my winter tires on for the season yet and the PS4S's have been fine down to 45° so far. I have the old PSS tires on my M4 and it drives like crap at the same temp.
I did the same with my 911. Pulled the P Zeros and replaced with PS4S N0s.
The P Zeros were a MESS as soon as it got below 70 degrees, let alone below 70 degrees and raining. Scary stuff.
The PS4S N0s are A-OK well beyond the threshold of the P Zeros, though I switch to the RE980AS sometime in November. Don't laugh at an all-season on the 911! They are superb tires in the cold and wet. We don't really get snow and our temperatures (thankfully) don't get cold enough long enough to require true winter tires.
Oh heck, I'll just be disagreeable with everyone . . .
I have always found the PZero to be a little better in the wet than the PSSs or the 4Ss. For years, the Michelin's have always been noticeably better in the dry than the Pirelli counterparts. The 4S was to try and improve wet and cold performance and that it does to a degree. I still like the feel of the PSS in the dry, but the 4S and PSS are probably a toss up in the dry. The Pirellis have some dry grip, but just feel like trash to me at the limits which are again noticeably below the Michelins in the dry,
IMO, either Michelin should be good enough for the wet unless someone wants to drive in a rain storm like a bone head, but even then the slight Pirelli advantage in the wet won't save you. Then again, I use my Elise as a surf board totter at the beach house and drive it on R6s rain or shine. Anything feels good in the rain after driving R6s in the rain.
Lol, there has to be some tire tests results somewhere on the web bearing this out.
Don't recall mentioning a GTS above. Lol, truly impressive you logged 1.6 lateral Gs in a 991.2S. That's awesome, especially on street tires! The earth must have been spinning pretty good that day.
I know a little about 911s and tires. Used to tire test, race professionally and one of the original instructors for Porsche Driving Experience. I would like to think I learned a little about tires and how to get the most out of tires and their drop off points including the PZereos.
PZeroes are decent for daily driving in all weather conditions, not so much for track duty and definitely do not compare to Corsa on track to which my comment above related.
I am about to pull a set of 8/32s and 9/32s PZereos off a 2012 GTS cabriolet I picked up 10 days ago for cruising. Be happy to send them to you if you like them so much. I don't.
RE: Peak HP
Gotta chuckle at focus on peak hp as well. Total area under the curve generally way more important, but peak nice to have track I suppose. We used to play around with Lenz stand alone fuel management systems and a host of other options on some of my older hot rodded and track 911s. We could tune and build for peak, but generally got much, much better results for sprints and track when focusing on maximizing total area under the torque/power curve.
I actually said lineal (longitudinal) g - no matter. It’s a better metric for grip than lateral g because as a peak value it’s nearly always generated under straightline threshold braking at the point where ABS intervenes - which is the point when grip turns to slip.
The P Zeros are a typical high performance road tire that can do a few fast laps. To simply say it’s garbage is incorrect.
Power under the curve - do you want me to calculate it for you?
Once again for the people that can’t read - you can generate the same levels of grip on P Zeros N1 as you can on Pilotsport Cup 2 N1 and N2. This means you can do fast laps on P Zeros - however they go off quickly e.g. overheat and get greasy.
This is why they put a fresh set of tires on the 992 to generate the faster lap time. I have no doubt most of the improvement was due to the addition of fresh tires.
I track/race most weekends as in drive competitively on the clock typically at state level and several times a year at national level.
All tires are a trade off and at the end of the day you have to drive to the level of grip that’s available. Porsche spend a lot of time with tire manufacturers during the development of a car in order to deliver a product with good all round performance characteristics.
In a nutshell the OEM tires are usually good although people may have specific preferences that are better for them, their driving style and conditions.
The tire that is most overrated is the Pilot Sport Cup 2 - it’s neither a good road tire nor a good track tire.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Frankly I bristle at some of the unnecessary elitist disdain. The new Vette is Proudly American, AMERICAN not ‘MERICAN which is an unfortunate, derogative, stereotype against half of the US population.
Bashers should also put into perspective that the Vette has a base price of $60k. For 60k you get true supercar performance and for 10k more a hardtop convertible roof that makes the 911 cabrio roof seem antiquated in comparison,
As far as slats and scoops are concerned, looks are and will always be subjective. I would bet most people who turn their nose up at the C8 haven’t even seen it in person. I frankly find most Mclarens derivative caricatures of what an exotic car should look like but some find them sexy, And Lamborghini's even worse with odd proportions that make some of their models, ie the Huracan, ungainly and butt ugly from the side. The C8 isn’t my taste either but it is certainly striking looking with an aesthetic that firmly places it in the exotic camp.
Bottom line, General Motors has put out a car that is a true exotic for Everyman. GM and all the workers involved in its creation should be proud. Could it be improved, of course, but it’s one hell of a mid-engine start. And an FYI, I’ve been driving Porsches since I got my license. My first car was a used 84’ 911 Targa and the 718 Spyder I currently have on order will be my 12th Porsche. Still I appreciate what GM has done here. It’s one hell of an achievement and maybe the biggest automotive bargain ever.
Originally Posted by brainf18
I don't post often...but I'll weigh in and take some spears. I've owned ever variant of the 911 since 1982, so its safe to say I enjoy the mark. That being said, I like to buy American when I can. The problem is American car companies haven't made anything worth buying...Well, up until now. I've seen the C8 up close twice, once in Detroit at the Concourse of America and at my local Chevy Dealer. Ironic, but up until that day, I'd never been inside a Chevy dealer. After seeing the new C8 in the flesh, I have to say GM did a really good job.
Objectively the styling, both interior and exterior, is a matter of taste. Some people will like it, others won't. The 911's design is a generational evolution. GM decided to go with a full on revolution to breath some much needed life back into the Corvette brand. I think they've done that, and the firm order deposits prove it. Since GM started taking deposits a few months ago for the C8, nearly 40,000 deposits have been placed. Compare that to Porsche, who struggles to sell +/- 9700 911's each year. Granted a very well equipped C8 is about 40% less than a Comparable 911S (992), so the price point opens the market up to a wider demographic. But $80K isn't chump change, even to most well healed Porsche buyers.
I'm proud to include myself as one of the 40 thousand C8 position holders! Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up my other Porsches, but I'm happy to add a Corvette C8 to the garage also.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Frankly I bristle at some of the unnecessary elitist disdain. The new Vette is Proudly American, AMERICAN not ‘MERICAN which is an unfortunate, derogative, stereotype against half of the US population.
Bashers should also put into perspective that the Vette has a base price of $60k. . . .
Haha, who talks that way and love the racist rant!!!!!
Funny stuff. I truly hope no o ectakes any of this stuff serious and would imagine a lot of the comments are toungue and check . . . and then some are thesaurus aided.
You do get what you pay for. No getting around that one and the Huraxan is a bad **** looking car.
10-28-2019, 09:25 PM
