K-A

V8’s are always the ultimate in sonorous characteristics. They got it just right. If there’s any issue, it’s that they can sound a bit “generic” to other V8’s and lack some of that unique exotic appeal of an N/A flat six (which unfortunately the turbos help do away with and “suck out”).

I hope we can see it sooner. Though I have a feeling GM dealers are gonna be majorly egotistical about giving test drives, since they’re not used to this kind of fanfare. They’re so used to tire kickers and amateurs trying to get their rocks off, I find they’re never eager to get one out on the road unless you’re “very serious.”

Imo, anyone paying at or over MSRP for a GM product that will be produced at 30K a year are out of their minds. These things will be commonplace and wear the “exotic factor” out within the first year, if numbers are correct. I’d rather wait until I can get a 10-20% discount which means early “teething” issues should he honed in by then.

People are really putting a lot of stock into a company with the reputation of GM getting their first mid engine Vette just right. Reviews won’t be the “tell.” It’ll be 1+ year owner reports.

eltoshan

Sometimes I feel like I’m typing to a brick wall. Not sure if a certain someone is a troll or just caught in a loop.

I do hope that the C8 brings the 991.1 GT3 prices down in a couple of years. Never can have enough options!

hacker-pschorr

There are over 250 996's on Autotrader alone for less than $24,000. Half of those under $19,000. And you are bragging about 911's resale values????


Never said Porsche wasn't going to keep selling thousands and thousands of cars. I'm rebutting your nonsense that the C8 is somehow junk and your opinion of the superiority of every Porsche. I love all cars from both brands (well, Corvette, I don't love all Chevy's). You are the one with a chip on your shoulder that cannot appreciate what the C8 is.

Again, did a Corvette run over your puppy as a child?

I also acknowledged the 911 timeless design works for.........the 911. You really need to read slower, you seem to miss important talking points.


So....your not aware the Macan is based on the VAG (Volkswagen Auto Group) MLB?
Oh no....you may not be aware the 2.0 engine in the Macan is also based on a VW design......... be still your heart.

Here's the funny thing. I don't find comparisons with VW or Audi as derogatory. I've owned countless VW's and Audi's over the years and it's nice to see the "family" back together again.

I think the Macan is an awesome vehicle, I'm just not in denial about the family ties to VAG.


You hang out at a lot of Chevy dealers? The arrival of the C7 was pretty huge, even at the small dealers in Green Bay.

You also don't understand the car business very well if you think a sh*t load of people showing up is a bad thing. The local Chevy dealer used to advertise they had a Shelby Series 1 on the showroom just to get people in the door. It wasn't for sale, it belonged to the owner of the dealership.


So Porsche dealers never get tire kickers and eagerly toss the keys to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks through the door?

Please share how many Chevy dealers you've visited that refused to give you a test drive.

Kinda like how Porsche took a whole year to figure out their first production water cooled flat 6 had some major internal flaws? Oh wait, it took them years.....

2slow2speed

You seem to pick and choose Porsche 911 models for resale value, the 993 that you had quoted earlier in a different post has good resale value since it was the last of the Air Cooled 911's.

The 991.1 it is the last of the Naturally Aspirated 911 (for the non GT3/Speedster/R), so it will also have a good resale value for those prospective owners who want a NA F6, vs a FI F6.

Look at the 996.1/996.2 resale values, horrible due to the IMS/RMS issues in the engines, look at the 997.1 vs 997.2 resale value difference, again the M97 IMS issue pops its head relative to the trouble free 9A1 DFI engine (along with the PDK vs old Porsche Automatic). So your generalization that Porsche 911 retain better value does not seem to hold true across the history of the last 20 years of the 911..

2slow2speed

10-20% discount maybe in year 3-4, depends on how much demand is there for the car. Paying over MSRP is absolutely insane for a mass produced car with projected 30K+ volume.

I do agree that Porsche should offer a "Classic", "Heritage" 911 with the 9A2Evo 4.0 NA engine for those enthusiasts who want to have the engine response and sound of a NA engine. Porsche been Porsche will probably tack on another 10-15k from the price of a regular 911 with the 3.0TT engine just because they need to recover the NRE costs for the 9A2Evo development. Most of the 911 will still be 3.0TT since they need to keep the overall fleet CO2 emission low and MPG up.

timlot

Corvette Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter talks about the structure.
8:40

2slow2speed

Thank you.

K-A

“When you weld a structure if gets weaker”

Coming from a guy whose “stiffest Corvette ever” achieves a meager 15,000 degrees of twist withstanding. Apparently Prius engineers have a better understanding in how to achieve higher rigidity figures.

But GM has always had a knack for talking their way out of cost savings:

https://www.motleyrice.com/blogpost/...n-switch-cover

Anyone who wants to believe what GM marketing tells you, PM me about an ocean front property in AZ. On the cheap.

2slow2speed

Are you a Mechanical Engineer? A Materials Engineer? A Civil Engineer? An Aerospace Engineer? Do you have experience in design/fabrication/manufacturing?

You keep ranting, seriously show me your professional credentials to back up your claims and knowledge about your field, otherwise NO ONE will keep listening to your rants.

As it has been pointed out several times, compare apples to apples. How hard is for you to just do that?

What you are spouting is pure FUD, widely used in marketing and sales.

K-A

He tries to use the 996, pretending like it’s famously an anomaly for 911’s. Yeah, we know 911’s are the “black eye” of the 911 family. Go look at any other 911 gen and see how they’ve performed in resale compared to comparatively priced new cars *that sell at similar volume.*

And 996’s go for more than C5 Vettes anyway.

I very much know about the Macan’s basis. Using an Audi chassis as a “negative” is kind of funny, as Audi is vastly superior to GM. So your equivalence again falls flat. Shows how highly regarded Porsche is, however, when an Audi chassis is a knock to its car. Still, the Audi chassis is one reason I sold mine. I felt when driving ground-up Porsche’s, something felt a little better. Though, the Macan drives like a bonafide Porsche. The VW 4 cylinder imo is shameful. Not a fan of that indeed. It ensures the soul of the car doesn’t feel very Porsche.

I’ll reverse your own question and ask if GM pays for the C8 shilling? You’re the one who called a 993 a “dressed up VW” or whatever. Showed your cards and how little you understand the 911, or why that 993 sells for more than a brand new C8.

Also, I’m the one who said that the C7 had huge hype and fanfare too. Same threads as this with fanboys saying how it’ll rattle the car market with more HP per dollar than Porsche, while not focusing on the underlying engineering deficiencies to reach such price point. Nothing new.

This is true. The 991.1 will continue to hold up especially well, as do the air cooled cars. But really, the ONLY 911’s that don’t perform well in long term resale are the 996 and 997.1’s. Those are well known anomalies. Look at the 997.2, they’ve been going UP in value, also thanks to their N/A hallmark. Vettes in general have lousy resale values. How the 991.2 will fare in the long run remains to be seen. My opinion and prediction is that the imo motor lacking in soulful qualities will work against it compared to the stronger 911 resale cars.

Agreed. Paying over MSRP is nuts for a mass produced Vette. 10%+ will likely happen with the volume they’re producing, but sure, depends on when the wait dries up.

This is exactly how the Macan launched. People were falling over themselves to get a Porsche SUV at under $60K. I bought mine in late 2014 and it was hard to even get a slot before that. Every unit produced was spoken for for over two years. NO discounts whatsoever. Used models selling for MSRP or even more. Essentially no depreciation for 2 years. The car was literally “sold out” for a while and you could barely walk into a dealer and buy one off the floor for a year or two. So Vette fanboys trying to act as if this has only happened to GM, not even close. A entry level Porsche crossover got the exact same fanfare and hoards of orders before anyone even saw or ordered one.

K-A

And GM is above FUD? Tell that to the 130 people who died due to their known negligence and cost skimping.

All of a sudden, bolting is superior because GM says so? Someone should have told.... every other car manufacturer.

All of a sudden a model who’s never achieved more than 15K rigidity writes the book on chassis construction?

All of a sudden, GM who in the mid 2000’s were labeled as safety hazards by NHTSA due to collapsing structures, should get the benefit of the doubt?

All of a sudden, we forget about the reputation of Vettes feeling flimsy especially over the years, and the poster here who literally stated his C7 started to feel like a different and worn out car due to track runs?

All of a sudden, the fact that GM couldn’t get bidders to supply materials doesn’t raise flags?

I am comparing apples to apples. Only one C8 is available. It has a weak rigidity figure. Comparing it to verts isn’t a positive as verts are known to be vastly less rigid than their coupe brethren. And the C8 isn’t even a full vert.

Why swallow what GM marketing tells you when all evidence suggests they aren’t to be trusted. At the very least, ask questions and acknowledge that all these points raise justifiable concerns.

Maybe C8 faithful don’t care. But I definitely find going from a 40,100 car to a 15,000 car, where one is welded together and the other is so called “superiority bolted,” a cause for pause. Especially from GM with their basement level reputation. I for one ain’t letting them off the hook. Fool me once....

Snakebit10

Define "Peak" track times please.

I remember the C7 Z06 beating the GT3 RS time at Laguna Seca and VIR. It beat the 918 time at VIR as well if memory serves. Those tests were done before the GT2 RS So if Im understanding your post correctly, your statement is not fact.

Can't argue with the rest. The modern Porsche's have been for the most part the better built car. That is a fact. For the money it better be. So the budget supercar Vette is not going to appeal to someone who is has that metric high on his/her list for a car purchase. Now Porsche track guys for the most part know where the value of the Vettes lie. On the track the Porsche can and has been prey to quite a bit of cars that don't have platinum pedigrees and Grey Poupon in the glove box like Vipers, ZL1's etc. Those type of Porschephilles see the value of this new Vette. Cheaper to race and make go faster. Those buyers the Grey Poupon stuff is pointless for track purposes.

K-A

I mean that no production Vette of date has put up better times than the fastest production 911 to date.

But track times are one thing. No doubt the two makes are always at each other’s heels. Vettes are the best performance bang for the buck. Period. Personally, track times are cool to see what a car can do at it limit, but are essentially meaningless to me when it comes to choosing what to own. How a car feels while being driven spiritedly on backroads is what it’s all about, and worth its weight in platinum to me.

2slow2speed

991.1 Targa torsional figures vs C8 projected torsional figures were provided in an earlier post that you choose to ignore.

Structural Adhesive Bonding in Aerospace:https://www.adhesives.org/resources/...g-in-aerospace

What to consider when choosing a structural adhesive.

• Your assembly requirements, end use and materials are all important factors in selecting the optimal joining and bonding solution. Consider these questions to help you select the best adhesive for your needs.
  • What materials will be bonded?
  • What kind of environment will it be used in (temperature, humidity, UV exposure, etc.)?
  • What kind of force are the joints built for (shear, tension or compression)?
  • Does it need to resist chemicals (motor oil, jet fuel, weak acids and bases)?
  • Are there any mechanical challenges (impact, vibration, stress type and magnitude)?
  
  https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/bonding-...osite-bonding/

Snakebit10

How can that be true when the Z06 going back to the C6 has beaten the fastest 911 out at the time of its production? If a 911 model comes after that feat and is faster it does not negate the fact that a Vette often has beaten the top dog 911 on tracks. Didn't the C6 Z06 run a faster time than the GT2 RS on the Ring back then?

I gave you the example above of the C7 Z06 beating the 911 GT3 RS at Laguna and VIR. At the time the GT2 RS was not out so a production Vette has beaten the fastest production 911 before. Timing is everything in this case so your statement is still not correct. Vipers have also beaten top dog 911's including GT2 RS's its whole history so Porsches are not unbeatable on track by other car brands..

I totally get your preference in the solidity of the Porsches vs the Vette etc. Nothing wrong with that at all. Its a metric that's very high on your list and so you should buy what you want. But it doesn't mean that the Vette is the wrong car for "everyone" who loves Porsches. Some don't care about 40k vs 15k for a car they will track for a year or two before moving on. The majority of Vette drivers dont track the car so 15k will be just fine.

This kind of reminds me of the ricer argument about HP/L nonsense when it comes to track results. Who cares that a Vette/Viper/Merc GTR etc are way worse HP/L-wise to an S2000/NSX etc when they are eating your lunch on the track in spite of their HP/L perceived deficiencies lol. Same thing here. If a 15k stiffness car is running with or beating a 40k stiffness car at some point you have to let that argument go as the car is doing near ,the same or beating you with less, on track. So performance-wise you can clearly see the potential of this new C8 even in its base form. To the track guys there is value written all over Vettes. For the GP crowd its trash lol. To each their own