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Well I finally pulled the trigger and had Premier reset the board on the battery. Very easy to remove battery and take apart as well. So far everything is doing fine . I did charge battery before replacing the reprogramed board so I will post any changes if any over time. His service was very quick and no issues so if your on the fence about doing it.. hope this input helps. Hopefully it buys me enough time either for a more permanent fix from porsche or 3rd party.
Thanks again to all thats been giving input and advise.
Sorry work and going back and forth with the dealer is killing me. So it only takes 3 things. The negative cable, The AGM battery and a vent hose. But the only drawback is it has to be done at the dealer cause the software coding they use ( I could be wrong on this). I was test driving it for a bit and there is only one thing they do need to fix. As I knew the auto start stop gave me dash light in the beginning it was annoying every stop the dash makes a sound. I actually just went back to the dealer this morning and came back this afternoon cause they have to recode it again. They managed to to turn off all dash lights, get all good readings but the auto start stop does not work. You can select it on and off but it does nothing. They are trying to work on a fix but I told him no rush on it cause I always turn off my start stop anyway.
Other than the start stop the car runs the same exact way except the the battery is huge but saved me $1500. Total came out to $2200. They have 3 more people interested but no on wanted to take the risk until someone did. I said F it ill do it. After the success they did another cayenne the next day
Applause for sure! Thanks for posting and I hope you know I was just giving you a little grief because I wanted to know what you did too! We do a similar thing on the 992s. But this is cool you went for it and are testing and can help so many!
I had to learn a lot about those faulty LGChem batteries, and thought I'd share simple solution I used. I'm sure it's mentioned here in many different threads, but I'll share my journey anyway.
Short version first:
Symptoms : 2019 Cayenne, 50K miles, 4.5 years old. Came back from the trip to airport parking lot - and the car is dead. Michigan winter, temps below freezing, about 2 weeks... I guess it was the time for that faulty LG Chem to go dead. Battery voltage reads 0.
Cause: the faulty BMS (Battery Management System) on the LG Chem LiFePO battery goes into protection mode when the voltage goes below some threshold (10v?). It physically disconnects the battery terminal "to protect the battery". It than supposed to connect it back when the BMS feels the proper charging device attached. BUT IT DOESN'T!!! So for all intents and purposes the battery is dead, and usually thrown away and replaced with a new $2 200 LiFePO battery at the dealer.
Solution: Send the battery (or remove and send BMS) to the shop in Mineola, where they reset the internals to connect the terminal back (as battery BMS supposed to do automatically, but does not).
Longer Story:
Tried to revive car with the little jumpstart battery I had - not a chance. Tried jumper cables from friend's car - it tried but didn't take. Eventually car was started from some serious looking jumpstarter like this https://www.jbtools.com/jump-n-carry...hoCNhgQAvD_BwE
Didn't have any troubles driving car from airport to the house, but there was a nasty message on the dash, saying "battery needs recharging" or something like that. Came home, run car for two hours... Turned the ignition off - car is dead again. Measured the current on terminals under the hood - zero V. Attached charger - nothing.
Went to couple of car stores around to get a new battery - they don't have it. Nothing. Than I started to suspect bad things, went on Rennlist and learned about yet another wonderful decision by German Engineers to put a $2200 faulty LiFePO battery into 9Y0 Cayenne!
We tried all the things people mention online : jumpstart with powerful device to wake up the battery, attach to another battery AND a lifepo charger... None of the things that works on generic LiFePo batteries worked on LG Chem unit. It was very clear that battery is completely disconnected by BMS, and it's not waking up like it supposed to. Page 72 of the Cayenne Manual says it should reactivate and connect to car's electrical system after 10 minutes of charging... Only in the fantasy world of German Engineers Not in the real world.
After that the next step was to try the "reactivation" of BMS by third party companies, as mentioned in many threads. So I got in touch with Anthony from Premier Autocare and Performance in Mineola (no affiliation). He sent the instructions how to open the battery and remove the BMS circuit board (so we don't have to ship whole 28lbs), and overnight it to them.
The real battery terminals, accessible after you open a battery - read 6V at that point. I charged the battery through real terminals and LiFePO charger, while Anthony was reprogramming the BMS and shipped it back. Two days later - battery is back together and works fine. Wife gets the car back and I'm a hero! Also, working with Anthony was a pleasure, fast answers and shipped the board back to me the same day.
The hardest part in whole process was to open the battery. The lid is simply glued onto the box, and it takes some patience and perseverance to open it without damaging too much. After it's open - it takes literally 30 seconds to remove the BMS board. Of course you can ship the whole battery, it'll just be a LOT longer to get it back, as you can only ship batteries by UPS ground.
In conclusion - knowing how Porsche dealers work, it's yet another case when dealer will charge you a price of a new part, when the "old" part can be fixed at a fraction of the cost... I'm pretty sure that ALL dead LG Chem batteries (after leaving car for a long time with no charging) can be revived this way. It will also be faster then ordering a new battery, as dealers usually don't stock those.
Why would German Engineers do that to us - ridiculously priced battery that is absolutely not necessary on Cayenne... is beyond my understanding. I will be converting to AGM battery if something happens again.
Might have low temp charging protection on the battery. That will do the same thing. So if it's dead and won't jump back to life, be sure battery is over 32F (0C) and try again.
So how is the battery conversion working so far? The guy at the service center was a little iffy and said he did not know the long term effects. Porsche is shipping new batteries from Germany in mid March. All the batteries are assigned by name and vehicle according to the dealer. Not quite sure what that means but dealer did not even know if they would get any for sure.
So how is the battery conversion working so far? The guy at the service center was a little iffy and said he did not know the long term effects. Porsche is shipping new batteries from Germany in mid March. All the batteries are assigned by name and vehicle according to the dealer. Not quite sure what that means but dealer did not even know if they would get any for sure.
I have no problems so far the car runs just as the same if it was on lithium. Only drawback is the auto start stop which I didn’t care about. I think what he meant about batteries is they are already called for the 2019-2020 cayennes batteries are going out in mass numbers the dealer had already 5 people needing it and I see a post almost everyday on another person needing a battery. Some have their cars still at the dealer for over a month
The guy at the service center was a little iffy and said he did not know the long term effects. Porsche is shipping new batteries from Germany in mid March. All the batteries are assigned by name and vehicle according to the dealer. Not quite sure what that means but dealer did not even know if they would get any for sure.
Dealers and their Service Dept actually don't know much about their Cars, which I learned because a friend of mine is a Gold Certified Porsche Mechanic at Porsche. He couldn't tell me anything about the details of the charging system change that occured in PIWIS, and other finer details. This is understandable being Cars are so computer oriented nowadays, but the service departments often spew nonsense and don't know. Especially the advisors, whom are just sales persons. Like the statement that the batteries are assigned by name and vehicle, what does that even mean? But what I can add, is that the "long term" use of a different battery will not harm the Car whatsoever. I can make that statement in general because a battery cannot harm the Car actually. So if it works now, it will continue to work the same way. I'll explain why below.
What might be a good addtional test for Miknow would be to test what flags come up and how the Cayenne reacts if you over-discharged the battery. Meaning if Miknow wants to learn a bit about how his change-out worked in an even broader sense, he could over-dischrge the battery, in a controlled area like at his house, and see what flags come up or if the Cayenne does anything odd when over-discharged. This could establish worst case scenario and how the car reacts after a deep discharge, since Porsches can be a little wonky in this regard. Just suggesting that as something to look at to make sure if your out camping or drain the battery somewhere then you know what would happen if your battery went dead. On some of the Cayennes, and I don't know enough about them or what years they changed stuff, they had a protocol to follow to get it Cars system awake again, I'm not talking about the battery going into sleep. But anyway, that might be a test to try if anyone does the swap. But I personally think it would just go back to normal after being recharged.
Now to explain why there will be no "long term" damage to a Car with a battery change from Lihtium to Lead, or vice-versa. There is a often a misconception on how a battery works by some, and they think that a Battery can "fry" or damage some part of a Vehicles electrical system. This is not accurate actually, so here is a basic analogy... Think of the battery as a Glass of water, with the water being the energy, and the straw as the wire, and think of your mouth/suction on the straw as being any devices such as the Lights, Radio or any other electrical device. So the water in the glass cannot and does not jump out of the glass, it does not force itself into your mouth, it just sits there doing nothing until you draw from the straw. So, drawing from the straw is like turning on the Lights or Radio, the point I'm trying to make is that any electrical device you "turn on" DRAWS energy from the battery, the battery does not PUSH energy into any device. Additionally a battery cannot spontaneously raise in any significant level voltage beyond it's nominal Voltage which is 12.6v for lead/acid and 13.2v for Lithium. Batteries can not go above these voltages UNLESS they are taken to higher voltages by a Charger or Alternator, and if you take the battery off the Charger/Alternator, it will start to immediately start to lose voltage and go back down to its lower Nominal Voltage which takes about a day or so. So it is the ONLY the Charger/Alternator that will ever make a battery go higher in voltage. Now consider that the vehicles entire system is designed to be able to take the highest Voltage and Current that the Alternator is designed to put out... meaning the the Engineers know the Alternator can go as high and sometimes higher than 15-16v so the lighting , radio, and other accessories are designed to deal with these higher voltage put out by the Alternator. So the bottom line is a battery can't go above it nominal voltage of 12.8v and 13.2v so it can NEVER harm any electrical parts, or fry system components because its highest voltage is way below what the electrical parts are designed to handle.. The ONLY times a Battery can actually damage your Vehicle is if you reverse the Polarity of the connections on your Car, which can't really be done in a Modern Porsche, or if you directly short-circuit the battery while it is in your Car, at that point something can "fry" so to speak. The other thing that can harm your system is if you put a much higher voltage battery into your car... like and 18 or 24v battery... but that would be massive user error and these higher voltage batteries won't fit in a Car because they don't generally make them in OEM size.
I'm posting this because I really have not had a good experiance with two Porsche Dealerships. In 2019 Porsche tried to tell me that because I put a Lithium Battery in my 2016 GT3RS, which I had in the Car for 3 years, that it ruined their Emergency Brake Sensor and that is what caused my Car to be locked in place and not be able to be moved, and it would cost $5000 to fix and was not covered by warranty. This sensor was a known problem the Car had, even with the AGM Battery it came with. Anyway, I was so peeved by this outright lie that I asked them to explain how this could be, then told them the facts and that we manufacture batteries, so I could prove their false statements. Then I said if you don't fix the Car will be in court as fast as we can. Anyway, they called back 20 minutes later and said they would fix it under warranty. But I saw the total scam Porsche tries to do with its Customers first hand... and after paying for such and expensive Car I was like... NO WAY. So don't let them try to pull their boloney if you are having issues.
Sorry for the delay in providing an update - work's been busy the last couple of weeks. Here's how things ended up:
- While we were waiting for the battery replacement to arrive from Florida, Porsche asked the service department to run a battery of tests (pun intended) to see if it truly was the known defect and would be covered under the emissions warranty. They also asked me a couple of questions like how often I drove the Cayenne during the week, how long were my typical drives, etc.
- Of course, once it's in the shop, the Cayenne didn't exhibit low power or died like it did earlier ( ! ).
- Since the Porsche-mandated tests were inconclusive and still no replacement battery in sight after two weeks, the service department applied two bulletins 2229.11 (CONBOX DRAW DISCHARGE 12V BATTERY) and TI 2706 (COMPLAINT - BATTERY VEHICLE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM HAS LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE). There were comments on the service order that stated "REPROGRAMMING AND CONTROL UNIT CODING PROCEDURES ALONG WITH POST BATTERY DRAW TEST".
- They said after applying the two patches and letting the car sit overnight, the health of the existing battery was very good and were confident I shouldn't have an issue again. Knock on wood....
I picked up the car the next day and after a week: so far, so good. Unlike most of you, I am definitely NOT an automotive expert so I can't tell if all the above was BS or not. This service department is very well aware of this issue affecting ~2019 Cayennes, they seemed genuine in replacing the battery, happy to give me a loaner Macan for the two weeks, and did NOT charge me for all the diagnostics and fixes even though I'm out of warranty - no push back. Since they couldn't trace it back to the known defective battery, they could have charged me but didn't. So all in all, I'm satisfied with what they could do. My SA said to let him know immediately if this issue happens again so he can speak with the shop foreman.
For others that will be facing the same issue, hope this helps! Do be prepared for Porsche to ask your service department to run these tests first and based on the other postings, how much your service dept is willing to help seems to vary among dealerships (plus if you live in a state where the emissions warranty is covered or not). And as others have stated, there is a delay with getting a replacement battery. By the time I picked up my car and after two weeks in the shop, the replacement battery was still on backorder.
Originally Posted by PorscheACC
Great news... Please post the new battery brand/model that will replace the defective ones, thanks...
Originally Posted by Marin Vizsla
A quick update to my earlier post:
- I just got off the phone with my Service Advisor. He was very familiar about the Lithium battery issue and it seems to afflict Cayennes more.
- He didn't have the battery in stock - it's on backorder for two weeks (!). He was very nice and offered me a loaner to drive while we wait for the battery to come in.
- When I asked whether Porsche would cover the replacement, he didn't hesitate at all to say "Yes". He stated it's covered under the emissions warranty even if the original vehicle warranty has expired ( I live in WA ).
- He said the replacement battery will be different (different brand / mfg?) and shouldn't have the same issue as the current one.
Other than inconvenience of leaving my Cayenne at the dealership for ~two weeks, I'm satisfied with the customer service at my local dealer. They offered immediate assistance, didn't charge me for parts and work, and offered a loaner. Knock on wood that the battery will arrive earlier...
So I’ve been following all of the various battery threads in this forum and still have questions….
The WMJ9 TSB update was applied to my 2019 Cayenne last year by my Porsche dealer. Does this mean that I shouldn’t experience the dreaded low battery issue? Can I now expect to get the full 7-8 year life out of my lithium battery that I was promised when I ordered the vehicle?
So I’ve been following all of the various battery threads in this forum and still have questions….
The WMJ9 TSB update was applied to my 2019 Cayenne last year by my Porsche dealer. Does this mean that I shouldn’t experience the dreaded low battery issue? Can I now expect to get the full 7-8 year life out of my lithium battery that I was promised when I ordered the vehicle?
I also had the TSB performed. Battery died several months later and prompted a costly replacement. Not sure if it was my luck, or the TSB is not effective in rectifying the problem.
I also had the TSB performed. Battery died several months later and prompted a costly replacement. Not sure if it was my luck, or the TSB is not effective in rectifying the problem.
Same scenario as mine. It was 5 months between TSB and, once again, the yellow battery light. My battery was replaced for free under emission warranty.
Here is my invoice and whited out my personal info. The vent hose is supposedly from a Panamera. They had a issue in the beginning where they needed to vent the gasses from the cabin. They tried different parts but the Panamera fit perfectly.
The dealers saying it cant be done is a lie. I am proof and on top of that I was watching the tech do the work through the service center showroom window.
I think the reason why they say they cant is #1 they want to make more money #2 They want to make sure everything is working because my start stop is not working for me currently. This does not bother me because I turn it off anyway #3 The service center I went to is a not a dealership It is the Porsche track experience track in South Atlanta. They have a shop foreman who is more experienced than others
Thanks for blazing the trail on this conversion to AGM.
Late this past December I purchased my (CPO) 2019 Cayenne (base). The day after I brought it home, the car was dead in my garage. I ended up being lucky - my local Porsche dealership is a very good one, and they took care of replacing the battery (another LiFePO4) without any drama or question. They had the battery in stock and the car was ready the next day. I paid nothing for any of that work.
Fast forward to yesterday - I met with the local Porsche dealership senior service tech and had a very good conversation with him focused on converting my car from Lithium to AGM. I mentioned that it had been done by the Porsche Service Center in So. Atlanta. Coincidentally, the technician that I was speaking with here, had worked previously with the service team at the facility in Atlanta. He subsequently did some quick research and got back with me indicating that he saw absolutely no reason why the conversion on my car could not be done - and he was completely willing to do the work.
I'm definitely going to have the work done, but not right away given that my battery now is brand new. It's great to know that the AGM conversion can and will happen.
Thanks for blazing the trail on this conversion to AGM.
I met with the local Porsche dealership senior service tech and had a very good conversation with him focused on converting my car from Lithium to AGM. I mentioned that it had been done by the Porsche Service Center in So. Atlanta. Coincidentally, the technician that I was speaking with here, had worked previously with the service team at the facility in Atlanta. He subsequently did some quick research and got back with me indicating that he saw absolutely no reason why the conversion on my car could not be done - and he was completely willing to do the work.
I spent a good amount of time doing some researching on wire diagrams and parts images and part numbers with a friend who works at a Porsche Dealership this weekend. This was to get a better understanding of what the Cables in the Cars were doing in terms of routing and if the diagrams showed any differences in between the Cars, for exaxmple if they showed additional parts on the Positive Cabling or any other areas nearby attached to the battery. We were trying to figure out how they were routed, and then doing research on all the Ground Cable Part#s for all the modern Porsches using Lithium Batteries instead of AGMs. Then looking at their part fiche images to determine if the Lithium equipped systems varied from the AGM equipped system in terms of parts located on or near them. I focused on the 992s (911s), and Cayennes, but we did this or most the models to find the differences like the Macans and Caymans, Panamera to see if they had the same or different part# or diagrams for AGM since some of these do not have lithium. While I have a have too many notes on this stuff , the bottom line revealed that we could not find changes to the Positive side of the system in the Lithium vs AGM equipped model and on the Negative side of the systems it was ONLY the Negative Cable that was proved to be a difference... not other wiring was different from the two equipped vehicle that either had Lithium or AGM.
Yes, those of us seeing what has been presented here in this thread sort of figured it was the ground strap... but what I found by reviewing the different years and models of the different vehicle using the Lithium vs AGM Batteries was to confirm there was no additional or changed Positive Cable Parts numbers or Paths for Cars that used AGM or Lithium, but only the Negative Cable part Numbers that changed in the nearby cable assembly. So with that being said, and while I can't test this out myself being that I don't have a Cayenne, it is exceptionally likely that you only have to change the Negative Cable ONLY on your Cayennes, and then plug the Lin cable that goes into the Porshe Lithium, into into the plug-in for Lin located on the new ground strap you would purchase for the Cayenne. The only thing you would have to do is have the PIWIS programmed if you went to an AGM Battery and the Vent tube as Mik and Schnave noted.
Here is the part that Mik provided from his invoice....
After all the current posts with members stating the lithium battery was covered under the emissions warranty I put ANOTHER call into Porsche NA to plead my case.
Unfortunately I received the same response the battery is NOT covered under the emissions warranty and the will not reimburse me the $3,250
I guess I have that kind of luck.
02-29-2024, 09:33 AM
Not in the real world.
