Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
11-30-2016, 05:40 PM
#2131
Rennlist Member
Having said that, and ongoing court case aside, I think Porsche's PR on this has sucked big time. Anyone in business knows communication, even without any specific information, goes a long way. I've gotten I think two emails / letters and that might include the offer with the additional CPO.
Not good by Porsche.
11-30-2016, 06:57 PM
#2132
Rennlist Member
No idea how they came up with those numbers. I would assume we would get something with a similar formula. 20% of the vehicle value on the 9/18/15 date would be, for my 2014, somewhere around $11,000, given the auction values were around $55k at that time.
In the last 2 months, 6 2014 CD's have gone through Manheim auction. Average miles about 32,000, average price about $41,000. That's a decent drop in just over a year, and reflective of about, imo, $5k worth of extra depreciation. I have auction access and watch pricing all the time, including prior to this fiasco.
In the last 2 months, 6 2014 CD's have gone through Manheim auction. Average miles about 32,000, average price about $41,000. That's a decent drop in just over a year, and reflective of about, imo, $5k worth of extra depreciation. I have auction access and watch pricing all the time, including prior to this fiasco.
I don't have a NADA guide from September 2015, so I don't know what that value might be.
So, you agreed to, essentially, rent a product that is performing as it was designed when you agreed to it, at a price you agreed to, for a period you agreed to, with an agreed purchase value or simple turn-in, and with nothing, essentially changed, you feel ripped off? Sure, your purchase value is now no longer what it was, but you don't have to exercise that option... you can walk away. Or, once it's fixed, you can turn it in and then turn around and buy it back for, most likely, a significantly lower price than you agreed to up front, and you feel ripped off?
That's rich.
11-30-2016, 07:22 PM
#2133
I believe the value is based on the NADA Clean Trade-in value on 1 September 2015. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure how that compares to auctions at the time, but I would think most dealers wouldn't be shunting 1 and 2 year old cars - still under warranty - off to the auctions. So I would guess the value of your car (and by extention, my 2014) is a bit higher than that $55K. And since some of the VW owners were getting compensation of ~$11K, it seems there's something missing there, though, based on your math, your amount would be ~$14K, if you add the extra $3K. That might be getting into the ball park, I'd think.
I don't have a NADA guide from September 2015, so I don't know what that value might be.
So, you agreed to, essentially, rent a product that is performing as it was designed when you agreed to it, at a price you agreed to, for a period you agreed to, with an agreed purchase value or simple turn-in, and with nothing, essentially changed, you feel ripped off? Sure, your purchase value is now no longer what it was, but you don't have to exercise that option... you can walk away. Or, once it's fixed, you can turn it in and then turn around and buy it back for, most likely, a significantly lower price than you agreed to up front, and you feel ripped off?
That's rich.
I don't have a NADA guide from September 2015, so I don't know what that value might be.
So, you agreed to, essentially, rent a product that is performing as it was designed when you agreed to it, at a price you agreed to, for a period you agreed to, with an agreed purchase value or simple turn-in, and with nothing, essentially changed, you feel ripped off? Sure, your purchase value is now no longer what it was, but you don't have to exercise that option... you can walk away. Or, once it's fixed, you can turn it in and then turn around and buy it back for, most likely, a significantly lower price than you agreed to up front, and you feel ripped off?
That's rich.
Of course I feel ripped off. 😀 My option to purchase was ripped away. I now have no but to turn the vehicle in. Regardless of lease or purchase the fraud was intentional and that is all that matters. In addition I am stuck in a low value car that I pay lease payments for.
11-30-2016, 09:06 PM
#2134
Rennlist Member
How was your option to purchase ripped away? You actually have a better option to purchase now. Tell the dealer/PFS the (fair) price you're willing to pay, based on the new diesel values caused by their cheating. They'll take it.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
12-01-2016, 02:31 AM
#2135
Rennlist Member
How was your option to purchase ripped away? You actually have a better option to purchase now. Tell the dealer/PFS the (fair) price you're willing to pay, based on the new diesel values caused by their cheating. They'll take it.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
Looks like made a pre-emptive strike with all the Cayenne Diesels sitting on US docks over the last 12 mos...they are now somewhere else to be sold it seems. Dealers remaining models from this article will be sold at a discount till gone. Some markets will see an uptick likely but that may be just situational until all dealer CD's are gone...but for some reason I think this article alludes to the fact that the price drop is there and real and value will be in the eye of the buyer but that doesn't necessarily mean it will hold at that (ala the housing market bubble...values were what folks would pay not necessarily what the actual properties really should be valued at...when the bottom fell it fell hard in 2008).
So all said...Cayenne diesel pricing and residual value will just have to see what happens...I am not fully optomistic and also doubt a buy back will still occur and if so at what value?
12-01-2016, 11:16 AM
#2136
Racer
How was your option to purchase ripped away? You actually have a better option to purchase now. Tell the dealer/PFS the (fair) price you're willing to pay, based on the new diesel values caused by their cheating. They'll take it.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
They will not hold you to the 64% residual, they know no one's going to pay that (unless prices rebound by the time your lease is done). If they refuse, walk away. When they clean it and put it back on the lot, at a reasonable price, go back in and play hardball and negotiate an even better price.
You're in the driver seat here... don't be the victim. Make it work for you, should you decide you want to buy the vehicle.
And if they get stinky about it, just walk away and let them sit on it. Unless the market does, indeed, bounce up once most of the supply is off dealer lots, they will sit on it for a while. And it'll smart worse knowing they had a bird in the hand.
___________________
2014 991 TT
2013 958 CD
12-01-2016, 12:11 PM
#2137
It is not intuitively obvious to me that just because these vehicles will be sold as "used" this will be a screaming deal. Porsche could very well sell them with the exact same discount they sell new cars and call them "used cars". After all a "used car" with zero miles is worth a lot more than one of the real used cars. Am I missing something?
12-01-2016, 12:51 PM
#2139
My recently purchase 2013 CD is absolutely fine. I live in NC and there is no emissions testing. Had I purchased new, which I would not do, then maybe I would feel different. The car drives very well, gets 25 or better in town and everything works and the warranty is good for 3 years from now. I am suspect of the gas engines, I had a 2011 Panamera and a cam adjuster bolt broke off and fell into the engine and destroyed it with 30 days left on the warranty (I believe they used the same motors). A friend of mine owns both a 2.0 and 3.0 diesel VW and they have been pleased with the cars and engines. I am not worried about residual value-I got mine at a great price. The car drives fine and does what it was designed to do and the mileage is fantastic.
Way back when VW and Audi were promoting their super clean diesels I had to kind of chuckle. NC does not test emissions on diesels for a reason. California is a state that has long been lost and along with the stupid EPA and they somehow managed to guide the largest European auto manufacturer into creating a fraud that would be impossible to keep quiet. Had we not had the government regulators, diesel would be a much cheaper fuel and the US companies would offer diesels in vehicles other than trucks that are not subject to the same rules.
Anyway, I have a great vehicle at a fantastic price that gets fantastic mileage. The only new vehicles I have purchased are Nissan and Toyota. Porsche finally builds reliable cars with the best warranties, they are very expensive new, but used and with warranties they become attractive to me.
Way back when VW and Audi were promoting their super clean diesels I had to kind of chuckle. NC does not test emissions on diesels for a reason. California is a state that has long been lost and along with the stupid EPA and they somehow managed to guide the largest European auto manufacturer into creating a fraud that would be impossible to keep quiet. Had we not had the government regulators, diesel would be a much cheaper fuel and the US companies would offer diesels in vehicles other than trucks that are not subject to the same rules.
Anyway, I have a great vehicle at a fantastic price that gets fantastic mileage. The only new vehicles I have purchased are Nissan and Toyota. Porsche finally builds reliable cars with the best warranties, they are very expensive new, but used and with warranties they become attractive to me.
12-01-2016, 01:44 PM
#2140
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It is not intuitively obvious to me that just because these vehicles will be sold as "used" this will be a screaming deal. Porsche could very well sell them with the exact same discount they sell new cars and call them "used cars". After all a "used car" with zero miles is worth a lot more than one of the real used cars. Am I missing something?
12-01-2016, 01:49 PM
#2141
Rennlist Member
But you can negotiate the purchase price after the lease is complete. Once it's turned in, the dealer can turn around and sell the vehicle as with any other. Having a buyer in hand serves the dealer well, so negotiating a reasonable purchase price after the lease turn-in is no different than putting on their lot and negotiating with a walk-in buyer, except they don't have to worry about holding it for any length of time.
So he wouldn't be renegotiating his lease... just pre-negotiating a post lease purchase price!
12-01-2016, 05:32 PM
#2144
Drive one. I did. The turbo lag off the line was horrendous. Stomp the pedal... pause... then it spools up... then all hell breaks loose... then traction control kicks in and the whole thing lurches as the throttle gets cut... Tried several different vehicles with it and they all sucked the same.
Granted, if you're willing to take the graceful, slow application of the throttle approach you might never notice it. But if you like to mash the go-pedal off the line you're going to be sorely disappointed. That and the overall luxo-barge level of "handling". I wanted to like the RR Sport, really, but that accelerator lag was just entirely unacceptable.
Granted, if you're willing to take the graceful, slow application of the throttle approach you might never notice it. But if you like to mash the go-pedal off the line you're going to be sorely disappointed. That and the overall luxo-barge level of "handling". I wanted to like the RR Sport, really, but that accelerator lag was just entirely unacceptable.
Granted the current four cylinder turbo petrol does not put out much. As to off line speed, that is what we have our RSA for.
I am looking for low end torque, and range for going off road. The LR gives this and much better approach and departure angles.
Still hoping to keep our CD as it has done everything we have asked of it.
12-01-2016, 06:41 PM
#2145
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Re: Upcoming Settlement
I am with many of you, Porsche has been a poor communicator in all of this. You call customer service and get nothing at all. I have a 2014 CD with the CPO and I did confirm (screenshot from my service advisor) that I have the 8 years of total coverage..
So if it is a software fix, how do we benchmark if there is any reduction in performance? Is there anyone who has ever considered putting their CD on a dyno machine? Porsche is notorious for showing lower HP/Torque numbers for many of their vehicles...
I wonder if any of the class action attorneys would invest to measure client Cayenne CD's before and after the "software fix"?
So if it is a software fix, how do we benchmark if there is any reduction in performance? Is there anyone who has ever considered putting their CD on a dyno machine? Porsche is notorious for showing lower HP/Torque numbers for many of their vehicles...
I wonder if any of the class action attorneys would invest to measure client Cayenne CD's before and after the "software fix"?