skiahh

I'm going to do some 22 minute tests, to test mpg with all the devices on and off (at least according to one report). Drive a pre-planned route multiple times and check mileage against the computer each time. To check for a cheat device, go to your start point, turn off the vehicle, start it up and go for 22 minutes. To check with it "off", go to the start point but don't turn off the car. Start from a stop, using the same acceleration and go 22 minutes. Reset the trip (#1) counter between 22 minute runs. Log the multiple runs. I'm going to do full throttle acceleration to 60, too, to time it for performance.

Repeat after the fix. Check for differences.

Plus, track your every day mileage - by hand! - before and after. In doing it by hand, you take away any ability to manipulate the mpg computer (for the 22 minute tests, you have to use the computer). With enough miles on the test before and after, you would have enough data to support a case, if the after goes down.

Searcher356

The lessor (PCNA in these cases) guaranteed the residual value. A high residual value is a form of incentive, because the part of the lease payment calculation is the depreciation (MSRP - Residual / #months in the lease). They own the vehicle, not the dealer.

When the lease expires, Dealers who want to sell "off-lease" cars don't pay the artificially inflated residual value, they pay a market (wholesale) value to PCNA. PCNA writes the difference off, probably as a marketing expense,
If the dealer doesn't want to play, they just return the car to PCNA, who sells it to a waiting dealer or, more likely, through auction.

If you have a leased vehicle and want to purchase it at lease end, just tell the dealer, and they can buy it from PCNA and sell it to you - probably significantly lower than the residual. If you don't tell the dealer that you are interested, they may just turn it over to PCNA and your car is gone.

One tactic I have seen for lessees (customers) who lease, is they want to see if they have a gem or a lemon before stepping up to long-term ownership. I advise them to do just what I mentioned, above.
If. on the other hand, the market price is higher than the residual, you have a guaranteed price (residual) that you can pay at lease termination.
There is no re-negotiating a closed-end lease after signing. Is is what the parties agreed to, come hell or high water.

Puts them, and infinitybreaker, in the Driver's Seat. Hard to lose, especially if Porsche sweetens the deal with a separate settlement check.

skiahh

I think that's what I said... just in not so much detail!

Needsdecaf

I thought it was more complicated than that. I didn't think it was the first 22 minutes after an engine start only. I thought the vehicle had to also be following the acceleration profile perscribed in the MPG tests....which is very, very specifc regarding how fast you go, how long it takes you to get there and how long you stay there.

Am I remembering it wrong?

jojamaica

I have heard a rumor that the settlement might allow lease-holders and early termination. I have a 2015 Cayenne S (not diesel). I have 17 months left on the lease and am dying to get out of it. Has anyone else heard anything to that effect?

Dan87951

Nope, haven't heard anything about that. I don't see why Porsche would do that unless a fix can't be applied.

Do you not like your Cayenne?

skiahh

I don't know. I'm just looking at mpg, not emissions, so the acceleration profiles don't matter. The Bild article said there was a 22 minute period after engine start with everything on, which was the test timeframe for a typical emissions test.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...-idUSKCN10I0PB

My intent is to see if they just turn it all on and leave it on 100% of the time with the fix and what impact that might have for mileage. And maybe performance, if my amateurish test can tell any difference in 0-60 times.

Searcher356

Yes, you did. Just expanding....

skiahh

It probably will... for the affected vehicles. How in the world do you think this would apply to you and your non-diesel vehicle?

Any settlement will be for the diesel vehicles. You have no dog in this fight... and are stuck in your lease.

Searcher356

It is much more complicated than that. The 22 minute cycle is in the middle of a several hour (24 hr?) test cycle. It is surrounded by cold soaks and heat soaks, and a few running-at-various-load cycles.
The running, acceleration, steady speed, varying speeds, are conducted by a human in the driver's seat . There is a speedometer outside the driver's window that tells him how fast the treadmill is running, and another display that shows targeted speed. When the target changes, the driver changes treadmill speed to match. There is idling involved - it's designed to simulate a city driving experience. Highway mode is similar, as I recall. I don't think it's part of the 22 minute cycle. It may be after one of the heat soaks.
This is from memory - I visited Ann Arbor EPA in 2012 - things may be different today.

I haven't seen any of the articles actually address the complete EPA test.
Which is most often done by the manufacturer, and certified to the EPA.

That's where VW got in trouble - not completely reporting their deviation from the procedure. A certain amount of deviation is allowed, IF it is reported, justified and accepted. VW didn't disclose their full procedures. That's what got them in trouble.
Not by exceeding emission standards.

It was later discovered and reported that VW emitted more stuff than the test cycle allows, but since there are no regulations written to address on-road emissions, they did not violate them. Just improper reporting.

World of hurt!

skiahh

So the 22 minutes isn't from each engine start?

The article made it sound like it was designed to defeat the ~20 minute standard emissions test you have to take every year (where it's implemented) on the dyno, prior to registration.

Some people here have reported worse mileage when they only run short trips, giving that report some credence. But of course, cold engines and short trips never produce decent mileage, too.

If that's not the case, then I guess my test plan is worthless!

Searcher356

I don't know. That's why I would like to see more complete info on the test cycle from today's reporting.

I do know there was a lot of prep and waiting before starting the cars, but I don't know where, in the sequence, the 22 minutes lies. First, second, third - near the beginning, or near the end?

I do know that the entire test is conducted in a large plastic bag, and all the contents are subsequently measured and weighed. To make sure that there isn't another source of emissions than just the tailpipe. I can't see how they could compare the contribution of the 22 minutes into the bag analysis.

So, your test may be valid, or maybe not - but it would be fun to hear your results.

RickDC

http://jalopnik.com/four-major-citie...h-t-1789601580

SignDoc

VW/Audi/Porsche said they will continue to make the diesels then, they are just going to remove the TDI and Diesel badges from the vehicles.

Searcher356

That's because they haven't been able to get the pre-Tier 1 diesels off the roads fast enough.
The Tier 1 - 6 diesels are a lot more expensive to buy, which has increased the age of the fleets. And these cities have a horrid pollution problem. and lousy economies.
First, they tried eliminating all passenger diesels and allowing only delivery vehicles, but they were too far behind the curve and it didn't work.
So, now, this step.
I expected the Media to jump on this and tie it to VW's Dieselgate, but they are only loosely related. Notice that they didn't ban only VWs.
The problem is soot, which has been virtually eliminated since Tier 5, but, again, the cities have been reluctant to require the old, cute delivery vans to get off their roads soon enough. Overpopulation also contributes here.
In reality, these places are the best places for electric vehicles. Just generate your power out of sight.

Of course, it's embarrassing for Paris, home of the Paris Accord, to have such dirty air when Heads of State convene....

THIS, from 2014: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ar-ban-one-day
It's an ongoing problem...