Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
11-23-2015, 05:10 PM
#151
Rennlist Member
Yea, let's hope for this outcome. The vehicle is great as it stands today with it's performance / fuel economy. Sure like to preserve those attributes, and if that's accomplished with a few tweaks, values should not be affected. Good for us; good for the brand.
11-23-2015, 06:30 PM
#152
I didn't think about the point made that the VIN's are locked and anything on a dock will be stuck with the MY15 tag....so if this blows over in the next few months there will be a bunch of MY15's on the lot. These will have to go out at a discount considering the MY16's are out. I don't think they will wait very long but I'll bet they get discounted or moved through the friends/family channel.
I'm convinced we will get something back. Maybe we should form a coalition that states what we want as a users group...not lawyers? Cheaper for Porsche and better for us.
Assuming they will have to make some change to our cars... if Porsche offered
-$500 in a gas card (this is for some of your pain we caused you the last few months)
- Extend the warranty to 100k. (this is because we believe in our cars)
- 10% discount on a new one when ready (because we value our relationship)
Would you be OK?
I'm convinced we will get something back. Maybe we should form a coalition that states what we want as a users group...not lawyers? Cheaper for Porsche and better for us.
Assuming they will have to make some change to our cars... if Porsche offered
-$500 in a gas card (this is for some of your pain we caused you the last few months)
- Extend the warranty to 100k. (this is because we believe in our cars)
- 10% discount on a new one when ready (because we value our relationship)
Would you be OK?
11-23-2015, 09:42 PM
#153
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
11-23-2015, 09:52 PM
#154
Rennlist Member
Yes, but how? The article states, as we know, that in real world mode the emissions controls are turned off, and assumedly emitting nine times the allowed amount. If so, what is all that AdBlue we are already using in our cars good for? That is, I don't understand why AdBlue is being used if the emissions controls are already turned off during normal driving.
11-23-2015, 10:11 PM
#155
Rennlist Member
It implies that, because the program switches all the pollution gear off except during the test sequence, turning it on during normal operations will rob the engine of either (or both) power or mpgs.
That's not good.
11-23-2015, 10:15 PM
#156
Nordschleife Master
There is a R&D difference in a 3.0 diesel and 2.0
Audi developed the 3.0, vw developed the 2.0
Different design houses
Porsche and vw just used the Audi engine
Audi developed the 3.0, vw developed the 2.0
Different design houses
Porsche and vw just used the Audi engine
11-23-2015, 11:57 PM
#157
Rennlist Member
Yes, but how? The article states, as we know, that in real world mode the emissions controls are turned off, and assumedly emitting nine times the allowed amount. If so, what is all that AdBlue we are already using in our cars good for? That is, I don't understand why AdBlue is being used if the emissions controls are already turned off during normal driving.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ating-software
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diese...n=awdailydrive
Definately more to come...but I don't see it resolving soon. Meanwhile the stop sale is now expanded to all the Audi 3.0L models and pushed down to 2009's...about 480,000 US vehicles it looks like at some point. Great job VW!
11-24-2015, 01:37 AM
#158
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Yes, but how? The article states, as we know, that in real world mode the emissions controls are turned off, and assumedly emitting nine times the allowed amount. If so, what is all that AdBlue we are already using in our cars good for? That is, I don't understand why AdBlue is being used if the emissions controls are already turned off during normal driving.
The software recognizes when vehicles are undergoing a U.S. emissions test and in turn activate a “temperature conditioning” mode that turns on pollution-control equipment, limiting nitrogen oxide emissions to permissible levels, according to the EPA.
In real-world driving, the controls are inactive, making the vehicles pollute far more than they were certified to be, according to the EPA.
In real-world driving, the controls are inactive, making the vehicles pollute far more than they were certified to be, according to the EPA.
Regardless, IMO the quote above does NOT mean that emissions systems are turned off. Rather, the controls for "temperature conditioning" are turned off. Plus, this is the EPA spokesperson's opinion, not Audi statements.
I am not saying that "cheating" wasn't going on. There is not enough information to draw a definitive conclusion. To me it sounds something like: during "temperature conditioning" emissions systems are set to full blast and otherwise something less than that. Not off. The word choices used in pretty much all the articles I have read just make it sound like everything is turned off during normal driving. Having said this, why the "temperature conditioning" mode ends precisely 1 second after the emissions test completes has still not been covered at all.
11-24-2015, 01:50 AM
#159
Intermediate
VW just admitted that the 3.0 liter tdi diesels in the Toureg, Cayenne and Audi also had defeat devices thus halting all sales of these models. Rumor is that gas engines may have also had undisclosed secondary defeat devices so this story is apparently far from over.
The most humorous thing about this whole tragedy is Audi's marketing tagline: "Truth in Engineering." Lol
Internal combustion for private passenger autos is on borrowed time. Diesel as a fuel for private passenger transportation will be the first casualty.
What we haven't discussed enough is how this will affect CAFE for the VW group which was relying on these diesels to help make room for high performance cars like Porsche. What I suspect will be the secondsry impact of the banning of diesel cars will be a CAFE failure for the group thereby affecting Porsche generally.
If you always wanted a 550hp V8 SUV it might be time to consider finding one.
The most humorous thing about this whole tragedy is Audi's marketing tagline: "Truth in Engineering." Lol
Internal combustion for private passenger autos is on borrowed time. Diesel as a fuel for private passenger transportation will be the first casualty.
What we haven't discussed enough is how this will affect CAFE for the VW group which was relying on these diesels to help make room for high performance cars like Porsche. What I suspect will be the secondsry impact of the banning of diesel cars will be a CAFE failure for the group thereby affecting Porsche generally.
If you always wanted a 550hp V8 SUV it might be time to consider finding one.
11-24-2015, 05:05 AM
#160
Moderator !x4
For what its worth I am still a happy customer. What else this size can do a round trip to EWR on the PA and NJ turnpikes at average 85 and still give me 720 miles range. (about 320 of that at speed)
11-24-2015, 01:14 PM
#161
Rennlist Member
THIS ....
AND THUS THIS .....
There is a distinction between the GM mess and the VW one. GM had some incompetent engineers that attempted to squeeze a few pennies out of the cost of the ignition switch, while VW intentionally wrote software to deceive the regulators and their customers. Furthermore, they misrepresented their products , inducing customers to purchase their products based upon manufactured mistruths.
Quite frankly, the culprits should be criminally prosecuted, as they intentionally stole from their customers, and their competitors. I saw last week that VW took on a big load of debt to get them through this mess, but I doubt there's enough money there to fully compensate their customers who were harmed, not to mention many governments that want their take, and still have a going concern.
VW's actions demonstrate true contempt for their customers / regulators -- manufactured this problem intentionally, and now will pay the price. There is no defense for their actions.
Apparently, this fraud has been going on for 6 years as VW was raking in the cash, taking unfair advantage of it's customers / regulators / competitors. Again, there's no defense here.
Quite frankly, the culprits should be criminally prosecuted, as they intentionally stole from their customers, and their competitors. I saw last week that VW took on a big load of debt to get them through this mess, but I doubt there's enough money there to fully compensate their customers who were harmed, not to mention many governments that want their take, and still have a going concern.
VW's actions demonstrate true contempt for their customers / regulators -- manufactured this problem intentionally, and now will pay the price. There is no defense for their actions.
Apparently, this fraud has been going on for 6 years as VW was raking in the cash, taking unfair advantage of it's customers / regulators / competitors. Again, there's no defense here.
For all our discussions here, we are speculating one way or another as to what VW and EPA/CALB will agree to do to get the 3.0 V6 back into compliance. It seems the matter may not be solved until later in 2016.
In the meantime, I know that there seems to be two camps around here: There is a realized loss or nothing has happened. I am in the camp of realized loss. We usually put a number on what we have. If our investments go higher, we spend more even if we haven't sold anything. When our investments go lower, we tend to stay at home and save. The CD is not an investment but still signifies an asset that we own.
The VW emissions issue has changed how we perceived our CDs. Maybe some of us were thinking of purchasing it after the end of a lease. That is gone. Maybe some of us were thinking of a figure to trade in or sell for a new toy. That figure is lower. Even if you say you'll keep your CD until the end of time, you know that the piece of metal is no longer as valuable as before.
I keep thinking how can VW/POA compensate for that loss. I think one way to keep the value up as before, as some has suggested, is to extend the warranty to 10 years and thrown in wear and tear maintenance (like BMW). If an owner has purchased the maintenance plan, give him a refund. Also, that warranty/maintenance should be transferrable. That would show VW/POA is really concerned about its customers while the customers feel their loss of value has been minimized.
Another way may be to warrant a trade in value for another VW/Audi/Porsche car, be either new or CPO. Maybe set it up in a table so that the trade in values are the same or better than retail. I think accountants can easily set such a table.
Well, that's just me thinking.
In the meantime, I know that there seems to be two camps around here: There is a realized loss or nothing has happened. I am in the camp of realized loss. We usually put a number on what we have. If our investments go higher, we spend more even if we haven't sold anything. When our investments go lower, we tend to stay at home and save. The CD is not an investment but still signifies an asset that we own.
The VW emissions issue has changed how we perceived our CDs. Maybe some of us were thinking of purchasing it after the end of a lease. That is gone. Maybe some of us were thinking of a figure to trade in or sell for a new toy. That figure is lower. Even if you say you'll keep your CD until the end of time, you know that the piece of metal is no longer as valuable as before.
I keep thinking how can VW/POA compensate for that loss. I think one way to keep the value up as before, as some has suggested, is to extend the warranty to 10 years and thrown in wear and tear maintenance (like BMW). If an owner has purchased the maintenance plan, give him a refund. Also, that warranty/maintenance should be transferrable. That would show VW/POA is really concerned about its customers while the customers feel their loss of value has been minimized.
Another way may be to warrant a trade in value for another VW/Audi/Porsche car, be either new or CPO. Maybe set it up in a table so that the trade in values are the same or better than retail. I think accountants can easily set such a table.
Well, that's just me thinking.
11-24-2015, 01:44 PM
#162
Now (end of "joke"), to return to real numbers, with VW Diesel and fraudulent NOx, it may be good to have a kind of overview (summary of one of my post in the Panamera topics) :
The current 500 (+) coal firing power plants that supply electricity (I think close to 40% of all !!) in the USA, do generates about 5’000’000 tons of NOx per year.
..This, when the 500’000 fraudulent VWs, produces (over what they should have) a pollution supplement of about 7’600 tons of NOx per year.
Or, ..the big problem is that these old coal fired electricity plant are fully amortized, and the costs to run these old plants are limited to only the coal and the labor, ..that enable to produce electricity below 3 cents per kWh, so, they are super fat cash cows !
Tough to beat ! no need to have battery, as you can start these when you need, and the storage ..is simply the pile of coal in the front of the plant.
Now, beside the NOx, if you start to ask about the things like ..Mercury, and other ***REAL*** BAD pollutants, this become another real big question, ..and, not talking about the HUGE waste of water that these plant generate !
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 11-25-2015 at 08:29 AM.
11-30-2015, 10:24 PM
#164
January 2016 we should have some answers in response to this CARB letter:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_1...nal_signed.pdf
From the NYTs http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/bu...sions-fix.html
"On Wednesday (25-November), in fact, California regulators gave Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche a deadline of 45 days to outline how they planned to fix faulty emissions on their cars with 3-liter diesel engines. The agency had already given such a deadline for the automaker’s 2-liter engines, which ended on Friday."
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_1...nal_signed.pdf
From the NYTs http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/bu...sions-fix.html
"On Wednesday (25-November), in fact, California regulators gave Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche a deadline of 45 days to outline how they planned to fix faulty emissions on their cars with 3-liter diesel engines. The agency had already given such a deadline for the automaker’s 2-liter engines, which ended on Friday."
12-03-2015, 11:15 AM
#165
Do we have any idea if this is taking long than normal OR what happens when the deadline passes? I suppose they will ask for an extension.
Will we have to turn our cars in at some point if its not fixed?
Will we have to turn our cars in at some point if its not fixed?