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Gotcha. I'm not gonna lie, I wish I had an extra 500 RPM more often than not. Only thing I would advise, if 7500 is something to shoot for...look into shaft mounted rockers. Factory style rocker plates are ok and work great for the typical set up. They do see a lot of stress, especially with a high lift cam. Shaft mounted rockers are significantly more stable and less prone to failure. may add an extra $1800 but could be worth it.
Good point on the rockers, upgrading them was initially in my plans, although both BTR and Katech said not required. Then I questioned it to Katech and they said if the motor I get is high mileage to replace with factory. They said they run unmodified factory rockers on everything they build including the current Grand Am motors and haven’t had one fail in over 10 years. I had heard some horror stories on rockers failing and dumping the needle bearings which seems like a real pain in the *** but like so much on the internet, maybe a little overblown as to the likelihood.
And being fully transparent, I don’t know a lot LS (or anything else for that matter) so I have been trying to learn and actually talk to people who have the kind of experience I would like to see to trust their opinion on word alone. Through that process I have talked to some really cool people who seem generally interested in the project. Learning about a new engine has been fun and there is no shortage of resources and opinions.
I would love to hear about your setup. There is 1 guy I internet met through the FB swap group running a 6L version with the Dailey and he’s been super helpful through my 1 million questions. It would be awesome if your experience could provide another resource (I’ll try not to be overly annoying with questions )
Good point on the rockers, upgrading them was initially in my plans, although both BTR and Katech said not required. Then I questioned it to Katech and they said if the motor I get is high mileage to replace with factory. They said they run unmodified factory rockers on everything they build including the current Grand Am motors and haven’t had one fail in over 10 years. I had heard some horror stories on rockers failing and dumping the needle bearings which seems like a real pain in the *** but like so much on the internet, maybe a little overblown as to the likelihood.
And being fully transparent, I don’t know a lot LS (or anything else for that matter) so I have been trying to learn and actually talk to people who have the kind of experience I would like to see to trust their opinion on word alone. Through that process I have talked to some really cool people who seem generally interested in the project. Learning about a new engine has been fun and there is no shortage of resources and opinions.
I would love to hear about your setup. There is 1 guy I internet met through the FB swap group running a 6L version with the Dailey and he’s been super helpful through my 1 million questions. It would be awesome if your experience could provide another resource (I’ll try not to be overly annoying with questions )
Been around them, and wish you all the luck, myself I would stay at 7000 rpm rev limiter, I would put a 485 LS3 tomorrow in the 04 if it wasn't for CARB.
OK - wanted to do the first post in what will likely be a series on them on some of the technical planning and goals / challenges. If you guys like these, I'll do more, if there's anything that you want to know specifically about - feel free to ask. My approach to this phase of the build is very much focussed on the engine's supporting cast - it is the combination of THOSE parts that will make or break the system.
Oil Supply
Obviously, an uninterrupted flow of oil through the engine is the goal. One MAJOR benefit of going with an LS based platform is the depth of aftermarket support. You want to cruise around, they got parts for that, you want to go rip 9's in the 1/4, they got parts for that, want to go around race tracks as fast as possible, they got parts for that too. There are a couple relatively large players in the oil supply game from the sump side - these would include companies most have heard of like Moroso, Canton and Weiand, these guys make the wet sumps that seem to be most popular and would likely be sufficient for anyone wanting to swap their car for light duty track and road use. In my case, One of the reasons I went with the LS is specifically because of the availability of Dry Sump systems. The companies I looked at were Aviaid and Dailey Engineering.
What is a Dry Sump
A Dry Sump oil system is one where the oil is kept in a discrete external reservoir. This reservoir is going to have a relatively tall and skinny shape allowing the oil to keep the base of the reservoir covered under all conditions. Oil will be pulled from this reservoir through an engine driven multi stage pump, the pump is driven through an external belt similar to how an alternator or water pump is driven. The pump then sends the oil through the cooler if applicable and a filter before it is introduced to the engine, generally either by an oil filter adapter plate or directly to the block. Once the oil has made its way through the engine it returns to a sump. This sump differs from the sump in our cars or a traditional oil pan in that it is generally only an inch or 2 deep. This can be accomplished because the sump will have outlets with which additional stages (think of them as additional pumps) will suck (scavenge) the oil from the sump to return it back to the external reservoir. Because you are not reliant on a large irregularly shaped reservoir to hold the oil and keep the pickup covered, it is much easier to ensure that the pickup stays submerged under all conditions.
Here is a photo of a multi stage dry sump pump, in this pump's case 4 stages. This pump has 1 pressure stage which will suck oil from the reservoir and pump to engine and 4 scavenge sections which will pull oil from the sump after it has run through the engine. You can see the gear mounted to the pump, this is what will drive all 4 stages and be driven off the engines crank shaft.
Getting back to the Dailey Vs. Aviaid and comparing the 2 we want to look at a couple factors - Price, Packaging, Reputation, Customer Service.
I'll start with customer service and reputation - both of these companies would receive my recommendation on those fronts, I have spoken with each a fair amount and both are awesome.
Price - The Dailey setup is about $1K more than the Aviaid.
Packaging - The Dailey setup is much more compact than the Aviaid and contains less lines (posts of failure).
WHY ? Why is the above true ?
The price of the Dailey kit is higher because of the materials being used. The Dailey setup uses a machined sump with which the scavenge sections are machined into the sump and the pump mounts directly to the sump in line with those scavenge sections eliminating the need for any discrete lines running from the sump to the pump. The machined sump and the pump are both of what I would describe "the highest quality". While the Aviaid setup is less money up front, it requires that you make a line for each scavenge section from the sump to the pump and when you factor in the cost of those lines, suddenly things start to get a lot closer in price. A comparison of the Dailey style Vs, the Aviaid below.
Dailey - you can see how the pump is mounted directly to the sump eliminating the need for any scavenge lines.
Aviaid with the scavenge lines for each scavenge visible.
So - what's up with these scavenge sections ?
When it comes to the scavenge side, it's more than meets the eye. Yes, the principal job of the scavenge side is to ensure that oil returns to the tank as quickly as possible - BUT, another benefit is that with enough scavenge pumps, not only can you return the oil to the sump BUT, you can create a vacuum in the crankcase that can improve HP. This HP improvement is a result of the vacuum in the crankcase creating less resistance to the pistons coming back down the bore than a crankcase that may be under no pressure or worse, pressurized. It's for this reason you may see some people out to maximize every bit of power running a 4 or 5 stage pump, to maximize the vacuum in the crankcase to the highest level the seals in the engine can handle. For my case, a 3 stage, 1 pressure and 2 scavenge is sufficient to get the oil back to the tank, but will not create a ton of power adding vacuum, there simply isn't enough free HP here to justify the cost of the extra scavenge section in my application.
So, how does this all fit into the plan ?
Well, the mounting configuration of an LS in our cars puts the crank pulley side of the motor towards the back of the car, in my case, the only accessories that will be run in addition to the dry sump pump will be the alternator and the water pump. Looking from the back of the car, the alternator will be mounted high and to the right, the water pump a about in the center and the dry sump down on the left side of the engine, mounted to the sump. This is all pretty good. But, We need to have the rest of the components... the tank, an oil cooler and the filter, then we need to plumb it all. The dry sump manufacturers know how they want your system to be routed, making that all work in a 996 is going to be a challenge. For now, my plan is to have the tank in the front trunk, this is great for weight distribution but ****ty for cost (lines are expensive. The oil will run from the tank to the pump mounted beside the engine to the pump, from the pump it will be routed to a PWR water to oil cooler, mounting TBD and from there to a remote oil filter which will be somewhere on the right side of the engine (looking from back). Getting all this stuff to play nice is going to be a challenge and I will stay relatively flexible, its entirely possible I will need to change my plan for tank mounting and I don't really plan to finalize this stuff until I have the parts in front of me and can start getting them mounted. There is going to be a lot of plumbing to make this work and always keeping in mind where the heat is being generated and how to insulate any items in the general vicinity of things that are hot will certainly play a major role in the mounting details.
The goal end result is an engine that has perfectly predictable oil pressure under all conditions.
Kinda a big deal to me, the first of the new parts have arrived - radiators off a 997 Turbo. The previous owner went to CSF and I was happy to get his take off's. Only opened the center, looks pretty good. My thinking is to start with the extremely budget friendly stock turbo parts and if they struggle to keep temps where I want them, then I can upgrade to the CSF parts, but if they work, I will have gotten to the cooling capacity I need for a stupidly low investment. Well... kind of, now that I have them, the work to get them fitted will begin and that may pose some challenges, we'll cross that bridge soon.
Also, seems like my engine is SPF, I plan to be really transparent with the costs, both in and out the swap portion of this project takes to give people a sense of what they may be able to recreate should they choose to. So, expect an update on that when I have cash in hand.
Kinda a big deal to me, the first of the new parts have arrived - radiators off a 997 Turbo. The previous owner went to CSF and I was happy to get his take off's. Only opened the center, looks pretty good. My thinking is to start with the extremely budget friendly stock turbo parts and if they struggle to keep temps where I want them, then I can upgrade to the CSF parts, but if they work, I will have gotten to the cooling capacity I need for a stupidly low investment. Well... kind of, now that I have them, the work to get them fitted will begin and that may pose some challenges, we'll cross that bridge soon.
CSF won't cool any better than OEM. They just have more shine...
Steph's videos are awesome, I have followed his career since back in the FWD drag days.
He really brought the whole technical level of sophistication up when he transitioned over to drifting. Definitely a guy I have a ton of respect for, you all should subscribe to his channel if you don't already.
As normal, he gives a great explanation and hopefully mine gave the process some justice.
Also bringing another present down - me and @Matt Romanowski have some big changes coming for the electrical / data side, a little intimidating but I am very excited.
Happy to pass along the MXL2 to @De Jeeper so he can get as much out of it as I have. Amazing that this piece of kit that can do so much came out of the car in about 10 minutes.
Also bringing another present down - me and @Matt Romanowski have some big changes coming for the electrical / data side, a little intimidating but I am very excited.
Happy to pass along the MXL2 to @De Jeeper so he can get as much out of it as I have. Amazing that this piece of kit that can do so much came out of the car in about 10 minutes.
Cool! I have a bunch of ideas on how to make things easier and can't wait to help with the project. The best part is all the data is comparable, so we can do before/after comparisons.
09-05-2022, 01:49 PM
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