Fastest928

With regards to European tuners, I am inpressed by the fact that RUF and 9FF can vin a Porsche and build some of the fastest and most reliable Porsches in the world! Porsche is one of the greates engineering houses on earth, and if they have enough confience in these companies to allow them to vin vehicles, that in itself speaks for the quality of the engineering.

I have run agains a RUf BTR in the open road races, beating them by just a few mph in recorded top speed.

http://www.openroadracing.com/html/200_mph_club.html

The RUF was R. Roth and we were the Thomas/Thomas run.

The ruf was no trailer queen, and we drove our car to and from the event for years running at speeds over 200 mph on pump gas with never a failure.

A RUF team from Germany was there to suppotr the run, and they were very respectful of our efforts and quite complimentary of our acheivements. I do not think they look down at US tuners, but maybe regard claims of "outragous hp" to be a bit over the top. I have seen the insides of the RUF 993 turbo engines, and the attention to detail is impressive.

Regards,
Marc

Stummel

It is not Porsche that gives Ruf an own VIN. You have to be recognized by the german government as a car manufacturer like Alpina to get your own VIN. Porsche is just the main supplier to Ruf.

Could you please give some data of your BTR? Over 200mph is amazing.

I doubt that 9ff is in the same league like Ruf, even if Mr. Fathauer (the boss of 9ff) worked for Ruf and Brabus before. They have been featured on TV a lot with their Nardo top speed attempts. They always had some kind of trouble like parts falling of or the suspension set up wrong etc. They just don't have the money to r&d so they play trial and error on the track in Nardo. At least very amusing.

Thanks

Fastest928

I may have lost something in the conversation with the folks from RIF Germany. An additional comment was that RUF agreed never to build a race car to compete against a factory ofering. I would think that Porsche has to allow a company the right to build using their "design".

It was not my RUF, but we have customer with RUF 993's. We rebuilt the top end of CP RUf. And have built 930s to an very reliable 450 rwhp. Building reliable high perfromance engines is all about details. Anyone can build a high hp engines, but making it last under many different operating conditions is the most difficult challenge.

Marc

Dknebes

BuddyG
Here is the list 755hp to the rear

Custom Garretson Turbo ball Bearing
Complete Engine Rebuild (Essa Tech)
Heads ported & flowed (Dave Jarvis)
Pauter Rods
Twin Plug Heads
3.2 Carrera Manifold
Aeromotive fuel pump, larger fuel lines
Custom Equal length Headers
Engine Management Tec3r Full Sequential
95 lb Injectors
Racing Valve Springs
Oring Heads
Trans Rebuild
Crank Fire Ignition
3.4 Cylinders & Pistons
Custom Intake
Greddy b boost controller
Tial 46mm Wastegate
Full bay Custom Intercooler Larger throttle body
High Strength APR Cylinder Studs
High Strength APR Rod Bolts
Custom grind Cams
Tilton 7.25" carbon, carbon 3 plate racing clutch 1450 lb-ft
Quaife Differential
Coilovers front and rear
Wide band A/f gauge
993 Big Reds

Dknebes

Thank all of you for letting me post here I will go back to the 930 board.

David

BuddyG

very nice!

Is Garretson different than Garrett turbo's?

BuddyG

Here is what my car is running:

They are the Garrett T04 dual ball bearing monster's!

From the PES website:

We chose custom Garrett T04B dual ball bearing turbos for this application. These turbos utilize the highest turbo technology available. They are also water cooled (factory turbos are not). Since the new Garrett turbos have completely different fittings/flanges, everything must be custom fabricated.

Twin Garrett™ T04B dual ball bearing turbos with proprietary bearing housings
Twin stainless steel headers with external wastegates
Twin Tial™ billet external wastegates
High flow stainless steel exhaust with German 100 cell catalysts
6 custom high flow fuel injectors
Custom billet mass air flow sensor
Custom GIAC ECU tuning
Stainless/braided coolant lines/fittings to turbos
Oil lines/fittings
Electronic boost control system

My car starts with that then you have to add the Carillo Rods, head studs, etc.. EVO air inlet tubes, EVO V-Flow intake, EVO boost hoses and you have some kind of Stage 5 ++ Mongrel!

It is definately more of an Autobahn Crusher than stoplight to stoplight racer.

I have a lightweight flywheel, heavy duty Sachs clutch, stainless brake lines, pagid pads, KW V3 coilover suspension, H&R swaybar.

Other than that the car looks stock, no wings or wheels.

TB993tt

So are you now saying that to get 600hp requires more than the $10500 US ? Rods ? presumably twin plug with ali head sealing rings, cams, oil coolers, extra fuel pump ?
If this is the case then your web site surely IS misleading and you are trying to mislead people by hooking them with the $10500 claim then revealing the full cost later ?
I don't believe your dyno sheets, I want to see a dyno on a Maha where the motor is fully loaded and held at peak power. RS Tuning developed some very expensive new Secan intercoolers for the 996tt and still only manage 612hp without cams - how can you keep yours so cool
I am not doubting your ability to build strong Porsche motors or the extreme customer service you appear to offer (which makes people like RS look like ameteurs) , just the hp claims

PorschePhD

I will say it again then. YOU come to KC and sit on my dyno and we will run any test you want. My dyno has more load then 95% of the dynos out there. The list of good dynos is Maha, Mustang, DynoDynamics, Dyno Pac. If you choose not to believe mine, then there are many other well documented examples out there of others running dynos. Besides, we did it in front of 50 people in Las Vegas last year. There is no rigging that. I am not sure how one could rig a dyno for false numbers. You might call Mustang and ask them if that is possible. I am beating the 1K flywheel in my unit will not allow that. You say you don’t believe dynos, yet want me to dyno. I can’t keep track. Like I said, I am all for rooting for the home team. However there are always others that CAN DO. The world is not flat sir. What is so comical is that before you even owned your first Porsche people would scream and yell about numbers never proven on a dyno or done with a butt dyno. Now people don’t believe dynos. Sheez. Someone must believe Mustangs since the entire state of CA uses them to smog all of their cars.

Yes, and in some of my 996TT kits I will not sell the kit without building the motor and doing the other things to make it bullet proof. Misleading, not really. I do not want someone like Jean simply looking at the site and going, ok...I can do that. I want you to call so I explain the differences and what your options are. There are many options in doing a motor. Jean proved that point with many of the conversations he and I had. I would not do the motor without certain mods. I will state again it is not misleading. If the motor has certain elements to it already then other things can go in place. There is always a Caveat and in conversation this is always discussed by me. I will also say this. The site is being done and that package will change completely. At this point that aspect is moot.

What is misleading are people that truly do nothing with cars yet claim or insinuate to. They don’t even know how to turn a wrench or get their hands dirty. They either ship it out or bolt it on or read somewhere this did that and all the sudden an authority on modifying or now a tuner. A tuner is a very loosely used word and is very abused. Bottom line here is there are plenty of hacks out there and I seriously doubt that all the 930 I have built are false HP on the dyno, all the TTs I have built are false HP numbers and all the other things I have built are false. Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Maybe you should ask around how it is this Kaspar guy got in to the business? It will throw that paranoia right out the window. There are plenty of companies that are not real…this is not one of them.

TB993tt

Very fair point, you are one of the few who actually knows how to build up these motors and your hp claims and marketing are only par for the course in the US
I have a very limited understanding of chassis dynos but know that on an engine dyno, the motor is braked and held at certain rpm whilst the various parameters are worked on to produce a safe result (not necessarily the highest hp) the motor's rpm is then increased to the next rpm point where the excercise is repeated. A true dyno curve is the joining of all thes points to produce a torque curve. The only chassis dyno I believed could do this was the Maha and then one has to have the test cell set up with specific cooling to reproduce a road speed comensurate with the type of use the car will be put.
Maybe Jean can throw in some comments from his recent Manthey/Maha experience ?
As for the drum type dynos, I can't see how they can reproduce what I have described above ?
I have seen power/torque curves for 9m for 993tts with 540hp/750NM on his Bosch FLA dyno (he has good cooling strategies) and he gets this level with minimal mods, K24, exhaust, Fuel press reg, bigger injectors and fixed 1 bar boost. Now I know that my engine (which has cams,twin pug etc) needs around 1.3 bar to get similar torque so there is no way I can believe those numbers ! I am as confused as the next guy but have to believe the people who do the engine on the currently fastest 996tt round the ring.

BuddyG

Hey TB,

You lost the war, the United States is the only superpower in the world and we yanks can make big hp tt's.

GET OVER IT!

Jean

Buddy G, this is not 6SPEED!

I hate to get in the middle of this debate because it has no value added, and I will not take sides between two Rennlist friends that are both honest and helpful to the board. I tried to avoid the conflict both in private and public because I saw it coming.

I believe Stephen has seen 600hp on his dyno runs with that kit, how the dyno runs were made I don't know nor am I ineterested to know. I do know that Stephen does not like to put those 600 hp at full boost unless he has done internals or warned the customer beforehand..

I agree as well with TB that the 600hp package should not be on the website because it could be misleading. You will not see a single respectable tuner in Europe claiming 600hp for that price, they cost 40k Euros and beyond, because they add all that is needed in their advertising.

I will state facts, and not opinions.
I don't have much experience with dynos either, but what I know is that my MAHA run was made for a duration of 35-40 minutes at once, with the car loaded and on boost, something like that CRASHES your HP readings and shows your real HP that you can sustain. If you car is boosting beyond 1-1.1 Bar, you will see drops of 100HP easy by the end of the session, which is when the result is printed.
These "800 HP" cars are boosting 1.4-1.5+ Bar, they will not sustain 600HP in those conditions.
In the case of Buddy's car for instance, 800HP without head modifications, with stock MAF (billet is just a gimmick) that does not read pressure but air density and therefore cannot sustain proper maps at higher HP, without super efficient intercoolers (not the GT2), cannot and will not sustain 600HP on a properly (maybe not the right word) done dyno run , the way the likes of Porsche, Manthey, RS or some others do. That is why a 600hp Manthey car or RS etc.. can beat all the records and most importantly, win races.

The MAHA operator in those houses grills your engine, to get the worse possible out of it, then tells you his opinion of what really it will see on the road, not the contrary. That is their philosophy back at those tuners.
I have dyno'd my engine both on an engine dyno and MAHA chassis dyno, it is my money, I worked hard for it and want to know the truth, I was very satisfied, and I don't care who was my builder as long as he delivered what he promised and I THOROUGHLY TESTED it..Even my engine dyno sheets were sent out to Europe with all the logs of scfm, bsac, cooler efficiency, boost, intake temps, etc.. for verification at a guru back there. The result is that I get at 1 Bar what other more efficient 996s get at 1.4 Bar.
The result is that I get 60-130mph in around 6 seconds or less at hardly 1.1 Bar and lucky if I had 91 octane and 40+ degrees C outside., with 2 runs only, on an upward slope . I don't need the 1.5 or 1.6 Bar. The video is being sorted out and will be posted.

Sameer

Jean,
Pls do post the videos in the 930/964t forum or e-mail it to me. Looking forward to it.

Jean

Mark, do you know any 9FF 700+ HP engine with more than 10k Miles on it? There is one here that has been sitting for 7 months now, it cost $100k to build and ran for 1 week. They need to be for 10 years in the business to win that attribute IMO.

Rassel

Isn't 9FF a company or actually their products, a bit too young to see their lifespan?
A 700bhp with +10k, would be very interesting to see. Either it's BS, or they've spent lots of money and knowledge in to it. Anyway, time will tell.

BuddyG - I'm completly stunned about your comment....