60-130 MPH: New performance measurement!
08-12-2005, 10:08 PM
#376
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This testing is one of the definitions of reliability that I doubt many "outragous" hp engines, either 993 or 996 can sustain.
08-12-2005, 10:29 PM
#377
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Originally Posted by LAT
Off topic I know but of equal impotance
The finest women are in Montreal Quebec just north of you. Your wife being the exception.
The finest women are in Montreal Quebec just north of you. Your wife being the exception.
08-12-2005, 10:30 PM
#378
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
I thought European woman had hair under their arms!! I am KIDING!!!
08-12-2005, 10:34 PM
#379
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Originally Posted by marc@DEVEK
Alex,
Please clarify ... are you saying a factory RUF porsche handled like crap? Dont tell Steve Beddor or many other folks who actually race their "street" RUF
and also drive it on the raod!
The big difference is that both Factiory and most Euro tuners actually run their engines for anywhere from 5 - 20 minutes at either max hp or max tq. This testing is one of the definitions of reliability that I doubt many "outragous" hp engines, either 993 or 996 can sustain.
Keep in mind, that every engine, suspension, chassis or other system can be independently improved, but to raise the "system" level of perfromance is pure engineeering. And the system is cooling, braking, suspension, engien performance, aerodynamics, reliability, etc.
Building Porsches to run at 200 mph for minutes at a time, cornering at 180 mph plus, then back up to 200 mph is a system level challenge that few have successfully accomplished in a street car.
An engineers view.
Regards,
Marc
Please clarify ... are you saying a factory RUF porsche handled like crap? Dont tell Steve Beddor or many other folks who actually race their "street" RUF
and also drive it on the raod!The big difference is that both Factiory and most Euro tuners actually run their engines for anywhere from 5 - 20 minutes at either max hp or max tq. This testing is one of the definitions of reliability that I doubt many "outragous" hp engines, either 993 or 996 can sustain.
Keep in mind, that every engine, suspension, chassis or other system can be independently improved, but to raise the "system" level of perfromance is pure engineeering. And the system is cooling, braking, suspension, engien performance, aerodynamics, reliability, etc.
Building Porsches to run at 200 mph for minutes at a time, cornering at 180 mph plus, then back up to 200 mph is a system level challenge that few have successfully accomplished in a street car.
An engineers view.
Regards,
Marc
08-13-2005, 12:49 AM
#380
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Originally Posted by TB993tt
You get an email notification if you have opted for it when posting on a thread - I guess you didn't know that ?
This is not an organ measuring exercise, it is 993tt owners enjoying what different tuners can get from our cars, you don't get a notification if someone posts a faster time
I think if Jean had a mind to, he could demonstrate a 5 second run, and without all the bouncy rev limiter and dubiously calibrated 930 speedometer
This is not an organ measuring exercise, it is 993tt owners enjoying what different tuners can get from our cars, you don't get a notification if someone posts a faster time
I think if Jean had a mind to, he could demonstrate a 5 second run, and without all the bouncy rev limiter and dubiously calibrated 930 speedometer
Hard to believe the F50 was so slow.
08-13-2005, 01:15 AM
#381
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Apologize for the interruption girls. Here's the latest verified times again...
1. 930 (dknebes): 5.2 seconds (requires confirmation that speedo is accurate)
2. Enzo: 7.0 seconds (magazine test)
3. CGT: 7.3 seconds (magazine test)
4. Ruf Turbo R (Bill S): 7.4 seconds (3-4 shift), 8.7 seconds (2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 shift)
5. RS Tuning 993 TT (TB993TT): 7.7 seconds (3-4 and 4-5 shift), 8.6 seconds (2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 shift)
6. F430: 9.5 seconds (magazine test, Euro version)
7. F50: 9.6 seconds (magazine test)
8. Ferrari CS (Bill S): 11 seconds
1. 930 (dknebes): 5.2 seconds (requires confirmation that speedo is accurate)
2. Enzo: 7.0 seconds (magazine test)
3. CGT: 7.3 seconds (magazine test)
4. Ruf Turbo R (Bill S): 7.4 seconds (3-4 shift), 8.7 seconds (2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 shift)
5. RS Tuning 993 TT (TB993TT): 7.7 seconds (3-4 and 4-5 shift), 8.6 seconds (2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 shift)
6. F430: 9.5 seconds (magazine test, Euro version)
7. F50: 9.6 seconds (magazine test)
8. Ferrari CS (Bill S): 11 seconds
08-13-2005, 05:02 AM
#382
Originally Posted by LAT
Off topic I know but of equal impotance
The finest women are in Montreal Quebec just north of you. Your wife being the exception.
The finest women are in Montreal Quebec just north of you. Your wife being the exception.
Ruf handles like crap
A.) Before making a statment that a car handles like crap (you didn't do that, I'm not accusing you). The term good handling is relative, depending on how you would like to use the car. Street, Auto-X, race, they all need different setup. I don't think I have to get in to this, since most of you know this.
B.) There are always bad apples. Plenty of people don't know how to setup their PSS9's. That can make their cars handle bad, it doesnt mean the car in general is crap. This isn't rocket science either, so no point of getting into that.
C.) Euro vs. U.S tuning war.
There has never been one. I'm glad that there are a few people who put effort in developing a 10-15 year old design. It shows that we have people who actually really like the 993TT and doesn't do it just for the bucks. It's also no suprise that there are so many good german tuners. Some off them have close relationship the Porsche Factory and Porsche Motorsport. It would be hard for american tuners to sell "rebranded" Porsches since they don't really have that connection so close. I have no doubt that this is only a geographical questions, hardly one based on knowledge. Any country able to send a rocketship to space, should have the potential of tuning a Porsche.
D.) Actually, some of the best looking women are in eastern europe now. Hard to believe until you see it. But be prepared to meet a lot of crap also..
-------
Now back to the important stuff:
Anyone got those 60-130MPH times for:
Pagani Zonda?
The Lambos?
Some Austin Martins? (The new clubsport would be very interesting!!!)
08-13-2005, 05:08 AM
#383
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A while ago Bill S wrote the following, (his car has the Ruf Turbo R package but is running more like 540hp as can be seen by his acceleration numbers):
I just had a great time comparing my Ruf 993 Turbo R (490 HP) with Nelson's (6speedonline) EVOMS Stage 4 gt (603 HP).
We ran several runs starting in second gear at about 30 MPH and ending at 150 MPH+.
In all runs, the cars were nearly identical. We would either be dead even, or the Ruf would be a car or two ahead, depending on who started first or who shifted faster.
Bottom line is HORSEPOWER DOES NOT EQUAL PERFORMANCE, so forget the dyno and take your cars out to see how fast they really are!
This is not the first time I've seen this. I truly believe 993TTs can be as fast as 996TTs given similar mods.
In an attempt to keep this measuring hp debate running, Bill S, was the 603hp at the wheels or a flywheel guesstimate ?
I just had a great time comparing my Ruf 993 Turbo R (490 HP) with Nelson's (6speedonline) EVOMS Stage 4 gt (603 HP).
We ran several runs starting in second gear at about 30 MPH and ending at 150 MPH+.
In all runs, the cars were nearly identical. We would either be dead even, or the Ruf would be a car or two ahead, depending on who started first or who shifted faster.
Bottom line is HORSEPOWER DOES NOT EQUAL PERFORMANCE, so forget the dyno and take your cars out to see how fast they really are!
This is not the first time I've seen this. I truly believe 993TTs can be as fast as 996TTs given similar mods.
In an attempt to keep this measuring hp debate running, Bill S, was the 603hp at the wheels or a flywheel guesstimate ?
08-13-2005, 06:23 AM
#384
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TB, it was a GT700 EVO with 600RWHP at 91 Octane.
The EVO 700 has timed approx. 7.5 seconds 60-130mph based on a post in that forum. rmrmd I belive timed 7.3 s with a GT750.
But I know Bill removes his spare wheel and tools when he races.
The EVO 700 has timed approx. 7.5 seconds 60-130mph based on a post in that forum. rmrmd I belive timed 7.3 s with a GT750.
But I know Bill removes his spare wheel and tools when he races.
Last edited by Jean; 08-13-2005 at 06:49 AM.
08-13-2005, 10:21 AM
#385
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Originally Posted by Jean
TB, it was a GT700 EVO with 600RWHP at 91 Octane.
The EVO 700 has timed approx. 7.5 seconds 60-130mph based on a post in that forum. rmrmd I belive timed 7.3 s with a GT750.
But I know Bill removes his spare wheel and tools when he races.
The EVO 700 has timed approx. 7.5 seconds 60-130mph based on a post in that forum. rmrmd I belive timed 7.3 s with a GT750.
But I know Bill removes his spare wheel and tools when he races.
PES just dyno'd my car on pump gas 92 octane, through the mufflers and cats, so basically street trim just the way I will drive it.
635 rwhp
590 rwtq
I pick the car up on Monday and will try to get a 60 to 130 run next week. I agree though that dyno numbers really don't mean anything. The only thing that counts is real world performance!
Great Thread keep the times coming!
08-13-2005, 11:39 AM
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Saturdays are usually the best day to go through your magazines and books and do a clean up with your wife's gun on your head.. So I picked up the shootout magazines and there are some interesting findings..
There was an FVD car in the second shootout that had an off-the-shelf kit that gave 527HP at the wheels (4WD) on the shootout Mustang dyno, interestingly enough, that is the "540 FWHP" bolt-on kit from FVD, which in my experience, with my own FVD engine, tend to be 20-30hp off , as (even German tuners) they tend to be measured under a set of circumstances that is ideal and rarely reproduced in real life..It seems like FWHP equated to roughly RWHP on a Mustang?
More..That car (with around 540FWHP) had a trap speed of 130MPH same as many other dynoed 650RWHP...
more...The GT750EVO that timed an unconfirmed 60-130 here on the board had results that were close enough to TB's and Bill's, a few decimals off, those times are very consistent with a quarter at 11.3s and 130mph as well..0-60: 3.6 and 60-130: 7.8 ? Consistent.
Only performance counts I agree, and that is what I believe in. But I just can't understand the above.
In any case, it does not matter, I just wanted to clarify why we sometimes ask a lot of questions, other than because we are a pain in the a$$.
There was an FVD car in the second shootout that had an off-the-shelf kit that gave 527HP at the wheels (4WD) on the shootout Mustang dyno, interestingly enough, that is the "540 FWHP" bolt-on kit from FVD, which in my experience, with my own FVD engine, tend to be 20-30hp off , as (even German tuners) they tend to be measured under a set of circumstances that is ideal and rarely reproduced in real life..It seems like FWHP equated to roughly RWHP on a Mustang?
More..That car (with around 540FWHP) had a trap speed of 130MPH same as many other dynoed 650RWHP...
more...The GT750EVO that timed an unconfirmed 60-130 here on the board had results that were close enough to TB's and Bill's, a few decimals off, those times are very consistent with a quarter at 11.3s and 130mph as well..0-60: 3.6 and 60-130: 7.8 ? Consistent.Only performance counts I agree, and that is what I believe in. But I just can't understand the above.
In any case, it does not matter, I just wanted to clarify why we sometimes ask a lot of questions, other than because we are a pain in the a$$.
08-13-2005, 12:05 PM
#387
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Regarding A) that's exactly my point!!! We agree... they were sloppy in that department and the car came from RuF so I expected better. It had nothing to do with alignment and all to do the with packadge they chose... If only they had used PSS9s that would have been a better start... Hey I never said Eastern European women weren't hot either. Actually I was neglecting to say anything so I could keep that secret to myself. Not like I want to spread the love you now?
?
Originally Posted by Rassel
Wanna come over here and visit?
Ruf handles like crap
A.) Before making a statment that a car handles like crap (you didn't do that, I'm not accusing you). The term good handling is relative, depending on how you would like to use the car. Street, Auto-X, race, they all need different setup. I don't think I have to get in to this, since most of you know this.
B.) There are always bad apples. Plenty of people don't know how to setup their PSS9's. That can make their cars handle bad, it doesnt mean the car in general is crap. This isn't rocket science either, so no point of getting into that.
C.) Euro vs. U.S tuning war.
There has never been one. I'm glad that there are a few people who put effort in developing a 10-15 year old design. It shows that we have people who actually really like the 993TT and doesn't do it just for the bucks. It's also no suprise that there are so many good german tuners. Some off them have close relationship the Porsche Factory and Porsche Motorsport. It would be hard for american tuners to sell "rebranded" Porsches since they don't really have that connection so close. I have no doubt that this is only a geographical questions, hardly one based on knowledge. Any country able to send a rocketship to space, should have the potential of tuning a Porsche.
D.) Actually, some of the best looking women are in eastern europe now. Hard to believe until you see it. But be prepared to meet a lot of crap also..
-------
Now back to the important stuff:
Anyone got those 60-130MPH times for:
Pagani Zonda?
The Lambos?
Some Austin Martins? (The new clubsport would be very interesting!!!)
Ruf handles like crap
A.) Before making a statment that a car handles like crap (you didn't do that, I'm not accusing you). The term good handling is relative, depending on how you would like to use the car. Street, Auto-X, race, they all need different setup. I don't think I have to get in to this, since most of you know this.
B.) There are always bad apples. Plenty of people don't know how to setup their PSS9's. That can make their cars handle bad, it doesnt mean the car in general is crap. This isn't rocket science either, so no point of getting into that.
C.) Euro vs. U.S tuning war.
There has never been one. I'm glad that there are a few people who put effort in developing a 10-15 year old design. It shows that we have people who actually really like the 993TT and doesn't do it just for the bucks. It's also no suprise that there are so many good german tuners. Some off them have close relationship the Porsche Factory and Porsche Motorsport. It would be hard for american tuners to sell "rebranded" Porsches since they don't really have that connection so close. I have no doubt that this is only a geographical questions, hardly one based on knowledge. Any country able to send a rocketship to space, should have the potential of tuning a Porsche.
D.) Actually, some of the best looking women are in eastern europe now. Hard to believe until you see it. But be prepared to meet a lot of crap also..
-------
Now back to the important stuff:
Anyone got those 60-130MPH times for:
Pagani Zonda?
The Lambos?
Some Austin Martins? (The new clubsport would be very interesting!!!)
08-13-2005, 12:07 PM
#388
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Originally Posted by Jean
Saturdays are usually the best day to go through your magazines and books and do a clean up with your wife's gun on your head.. So I picked up the shootout magazines and there are some interesting findings..
There was an FVD car in the second shootout that had an off-the-shelf kit that gave 527HP at the wheels (4WD) on the shootout Mustang dyno, interestingly enough, that is the "540 FWHP" bolt-on kit from FVD, which in my experience, with my own FVD engine, tend to be 20-30hp off , as (even German tuners) they tend to be measured under a set of circumstances that is ideal and rarely reproduced in real life..It seems like FWHP equated to roughly RWHP on a Mustang?
More..That car (with around 540FWHP) had a trap speed of 130MPH same as many other dynoed 650RWHP... more...The GT750EVO that timed an unconfirmed 60-130 here on the board had results that were close enough to TB's and Bill's, a few decimals off, those times are very consistent with a quarter at 11.3s and 130mph as well..0-60: 3.6 and 60-130: 7.8 ? Consistent.
Only performance counts I agree, and that is what I believe in. But I just can't understand the above.
In any case, it does not matter, I just wanted to clarify why we sometimes ask a lot of questions, other than because we are a pain in the a$$.
There was an FVD car in the second shootout that had an off-the-shelf kit that gave 527HP at the wheels (4WD) on the shootout Mustang dyno, interestingly enough, that is the "540 FWHP" bolt-on kit from FVD, which in my experience, with my own FVD engine, tend to be 20-30hp off , as (even German tuners) they tend to be measured under a set of circumstances that is ideal and rarely reproduced in real life..It seems like FWHP equated to roughly RWHP on a Mustang?
More..That car (with around 540FWHP) had a trap speed of 130MPH same as many other dynoed 650RWHP...
more...The GT750EVO that timed an unconfirmed 60-130 here on the board had results that were close enough to TB's and Bill's, a few decimals off, those times are very consistent with a quarter at 11.3s and 130mph as well..0-60: 3.6 and 60-130: 7.8 ? Consistent.Only performance counts I agree, and that is what I believe in. But I just can't understand the above.
In any case, it does not matter, I just wanted to clarify why we sometimes ask a lot of questions, other than because we are a pain in the a$$.
08-13-2005, 12:48 PM
#389
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Originally Posted by Jean
But I know Bill removes his spare wheel and tools when he races.
I've driven with many different cars on the street and track, including different 993 and 996TT kits (but no Rufs, Protomotives or Enzos). The only cars I've found to accelerate faster then the Ruf (and not by much) are the CGT and the Andial 3.8.
BTW, I thought Todd at Protomotive was a US tuner? His cars accelerate much faster then the Ruf cars. However, if you look at the amount of work he does on the cars, it's obvious why. His cars are also very reliable, although maybe slightly less then Ruf because he uses many custom parts that may not be as well engineered and tested as the modified factory parts that Ruf uses.
Last edited by Bill S.; 08-13-2005 at 01:46 PM.
08-13-2005, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill S.
BTW, I thought Todd at Protomotive was a US tuner? .
I don't tend to defend my builder as he does not need it, but if I do, it is never based on emotions or friendship but rather on painstakenly challenged results.
Whether his engines are as reliable as RUF I don't know, but I can tell you that he builds every component in his engine, and they are VERY thoroughly tested on his engine dyno and analysis software, and years of experience with many fast engines on the road...furthermore, his daily driver is a heavily modded 993TT (mine is a joke) and his wife's too. twin plug, pressure sensing Motronic, not many know how to do that.
Whenever you can build an aircooled turbo engine with a 330hp/absolute bar efficiency and run at only 1 Bar maximum, it can last forever (so to speak).
He is not the builder. His wife is, he is the turbosystem engineer and programming guru, the Bill Gates of turbosystems and works off a ranch.
Have you seen his website? 
BTW, the spare tire thing was a joke.
