Car Transport Ship Felicity Ace Catches Fire Mid Atlantic
02-21-2022, 03:18 PM
#331
Rennlist Member
I agree on caution, but… the ship was on fire as of two hours ago, it’s full of combustible material, has been abandoned.
That is enough information to declare the cargo a total loss. Just the heat variable alone is enough to scrap the vehicles, lest some critical part have been damaged and give way on a family of 4 in a Cayenne two years from now in NY.
The horse is dead, Jim.
That is enough information to declare the cargo a total loss. Just the heat variable alone is enough to scrap the vehicles, lest some critical part have been damaged and give way on a family of 4 in a Cayenne two years from now in NY.
The horse is dead, Jim.
Once the cause is determined, there will likely be legal finger-pointing. Was it a defect in a car? Was it something the car loading crew did? The ship's crew? Unseaworthyness of the vessel?
Lots of work for lawyers for sure.
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CodyBigdog (02-21-2022)
02-21-2022, 03:39 PM
#332
All all those lovely cars just gone. Terrible. The Bentley Lambos and Porsches would have been treasured for years, what a waste.
I am the biggest supporter of new technology you will ever meet and I have driven over 140,000 miles in electric cars.
Bring on V-TOL and hydrogen power, all fine by me.
The idea of driving a diesel or petrol engine car in a city is terrible for air quality. We all know that. It has been terrible for years.
However, if you you were just to replace all the 289,000,000 ICE cars in the USA with lithium powered electric cars overnight, or even a few years, would be an environmental disaster. Imagine the energy required to do that.
I think it might take a while.
Dont forget, plenty of electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, just saying. Maybe 60% in 2020?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Not to mention which, plenty of electricity is lost in transmission through the grid and transformers by the time it gets to your wheels.
So it is not as clear cut as some new Model 3 owners have been eulogizing to me recently. The electricity has to come from somewhere.
I am the biggest supporter of new technology you will ever meet and I have driven over 140,000 miles in electric cars.
Bring on V-TOL and hydrogen power, all fine by me.
The idea of driving a diesel or petrol engine car in a city is terrible for air quality. We all know that. It has been terrible for years.
However, if you you were just to replace all the 289,000,000 ICE cars in the USA with lithium powered electric cars overnight, or even a few years, would be an environmental disaster. Imagine the energy required to do that.
I think it might take a while.
Dont forget, plenty of electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, just saying. Maybe 60% in 2020?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Not to mention which, plenty of electricity is lost in transmission through the grid and transformers by the time it gets to your wheels.
So it is not as clear cut as some new Model 3 owners have been eulogizing to me recently. The electricity has to come from somewhere.
This is off topic, but -
I think this debated has raged on for many years. But for those interested, there are a number of authoritative and impartial studies that even when you factor in the carbon produced in the making of the batteries, the generation of the electricity to run the EV’s, etc…EV’s result in far fewer carbon emissions, than do ICE vehicles. The biggest hit for EV’s is in the first 3-5 years in compensating for the higher carbon footprint of the battery production. But after that break even point (ie 3-5 years depending on the size of the EV battery), the amount of carbon emissions contributed by EV cars, is significantly less than from ICE….and that is even before you consider that something like 30% of the energy produced in many western states, rely on renewable sources, like wind, solar and hydro.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 02-21-2022 at 03:40 PM.
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peterdouglas (02-21-2022)
02-21-2022, 03:50 PM
#333
Drifting
What are the chances that at some point in the future the decision will be made that EVs can't share the same cargo ship with gas and diesel powered vehicles?
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
02-21-2022, 03:56 PM
#334
This is off topic, but -
I think this debated has raged on for many years. But for those interested, there are a number of authoritative and impartial studies that even when you factor in the carbon produced in the making of the batteries, the generation of the electricity to run the EV’s, etc…EV’s result in far fewer carbon emissions, than do ICE vehicles. The biggest hit for EV’s is in the first 3-5 years in compensating for the higher carbon footprint of the battery production. But after that break even point (ie 3-5 years depending on the size of the EV battery), the amount of carbon emissions contributed by EV cars, is significantly less than from ICE….and that is even before you consider that something like 30% of the energy produced in many western states, rely on renewable sources, like wind, solar and hydro.
I think this debated has raged on for many years. But for those interested, there are a number of authoritative and impartial studies that even when you factor in the carbon produced in the making of the batteries, the generation of the electricity to run the EV’s, etc…EV’s result in far fewer carbon emissions, than do ICE vehicles. The biggest hit for EV’s is in the first 3-5 years in compensating for the higher carbon footprint of the battery production. But after that break even point (ie 3-5 years depending on the size of the EV battery), the amount of carbon emissions contributed by EV cars, is significantly less than from ICE….and that is even before you consider that something like 30% of the energy produced in many western states, rely on renewable sources, like wind, solar and hydro.
Ergo, many ICE Porsche cars will be cleaner than EV cars for many, many years, given average mileages.
Last edited by unclemat; 02-21-2022 at 04:04 PM.
02-21-2022, 03:59 PM
#335
There seem to be a lot of EV’s these days. But I can’t recall ever reading or hearing about a EV car catching fire while sitting in someone’s driveway or garage? Have any data on that? Crashes, yes…but not while the car is turned off….that I have ever heard of. That said, I’m sure one can find an example of that happening, but I’m willing to bet that it’s an extremely rare event.
So, if by chance the cause of the fire turns out to be from one of the ICE vehicles on board….and not an EV….should we then propose putting all the ICE cars on a barge and cutting them lose is they catch fire?
The solution, no matter what the source is, cutting off/starving oxygen that allows the fire to continue. That would not be an easy engineering or practical solution, but I suspect with enough money, a solution could be found?
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 02-21-2022 at 04:04 PM.
02-21-2022, 04:17 PM
#336
Aren't chevy bolts bursting into flames in people's driveways?
Responding as an ardent fan of EVs, fully aware that a union-designed and built GM product shouldn't be representative in a meaningful discussion about them; just providing a datapoint you seem to have missed.
Responding as an ardent fan of EVs, fully aware that a union-designed and built GM product shouldn't be representative in a meaningful discussion about them; just providing a datapoint you seem to have missed.
02-21-2022, 05:45 PM
#337
Aren't chevy bolts bursting into flames in people's driveways?
Responding as an ardent fan of EVs, fully aware that a union-designed and built GM product shouldn't be representative in a meaningful discussion about them; just providing a datapoint you seem to have missed.
Responding as an ardent fan of EVs, fully aware that a union-designed and built GM product shouldn't be representative in a meaningful discussion about them; just providing a datapoint you seem to have missed.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38252...vy-bolt-fires/
“General Motors has announced a combination hardware and software solution to the battery problem in the Chevrolet Bolt and Bolt EUV that led to a series of recall notices over fire risks.
A spokeswoman for LG, the battery supplier, tells CR, “GM and LG have identified the presence of two rare simultaneous defects, found in the same battery cell, made during module manufacturing process.” GM explained that the cause is a torn anode tab and folded separator within the battery modules.“
”Hruska believes that eradicating tears and folds is a worthwhile goal but that imperfections and variations—sometimes measuring fractions of a millimeter—are relatively common. “The design of the battery system also must be resilient enough to accommodate some imperfections without catastrophic failure,” he said.The most urgent purpose of an EV’s battery management system is to prevent overheating in one cell from spreading to the rest of the pack. The first safety measure is to produce near-flawless cells, and the second level of protection is to detect problematic cells and modules—and isolate them. “It’s two layers of safety engineering,” said analyst Sam Jaffe, vice president of Battery Storage Solutions at E Source, a research and consulting firm. “You don’t want a defective cell, but sometimes you still get them.”
Jaffe said, “In the Bolt’s case, both layers failed more than a dozen times.”
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 02-21-2022 at 05:58 PM.
02-21-2022, 05:54 PM
#338
The recalls are through MY22, so it does seem many out there would still be vulnerable.
02-21-2022, 05:59 PM
#339
Agree. I wonder whether any bolts have caught fire after they were repaired in the recall? Guess I better pay attention to any recalls I get on my Prius?
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 02-21-2022 at 06:07 PM.
02-21-2022, 07:16 PM
#341
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA and Melbourne, Australia
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02-21-2022, 08:54 PM
#343
Rennlist Member
It's an awesome read:
https://www.wired.com/2008/02/ff-seacowboys/
https://www.wired.com/2008/02/ff-seacowboys/
Hopeful for a similar recount of the tragedy of the Felicity Ace in the near future.
02-21-2022, 09:42 PM
#344
Pro
https://www.carrcarr.com/recall-mill...ial-fire-risk/
https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...sk/3353550001/
https://carbuzz.com/news/these-toyot...-catching-fire
https://www.total911.com/porsche-rev...991-gt3-fires/
You can do this all night long - pick a vehicle brand, find reports of fires / spontaneous combustion.
Much like medical care, you can find data to support whatever your view may be. Might be an N of 1, or 100. I think to castigate all EVs as evil and needing to park them in a concrete bunker is just plain silly. **** happens - and did happen. It's all speculation at best. Reality is within 10 years if you want to drive a new vehicle of ANY type the odds are strong it will be an EV. Doesn't mean I'm anxious to do it (although, I am looking forward to replacing my 2018 Macan with the EV model once the initial hysteria subsides) but it's just reality. Gasoline will still be available for some time.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...sk/3353550001/
https://carbuzz.com/news/these-toyot...-catching-fire
https://www.total911.com/porsche-rev...991-gt3-fires/
You can do this all night long - pick a vehicle brand, find reports of fires / spontaneous combustion.
Much like medical care, you can find data to support whatever your view may be. Might be an N of 1, or 100. I think to castigate all EVs as evil and needing to park them in a concrete bunker is just plain silly. **** happens - and did happen. It's all speculation at best. Reality is within 10 years if you want to drive a new vehicle of ANY type the odds are strong it will be an EV. Doesn't mean I'm anxious to do it (although, I am looking forward to replacing my 2018 Macan with the EV model once the initial hysteria subsides) but it's just reality. Gasoline will still be available for some time.
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peterdouglas (02-22-2022)
02-21-2022, 09:52 PM
#345
Drifting