Car Transport Ship Felicity Ace Catches Fire Mid Atlantic
02-21-2022, 09:02 AM
#318
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02-21-2022, 09:10 AM
#319
RL Community Team
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What are the chances that at some point in the future the decision will be made that EVs can't share the same cargo ship with gas and diesel powered vehicles?
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gover...ires-than-evs/
The last VW/Porsche carrier that caught ablaze and sunk was in 2019, with no EVs on board. Given the potential that gasoline powered cars are responsible for two ship carrier fires in the past three years, perhaps, it might make sense to temporarily stop the transportation of gasoline powered VW cars until the problem can be studied further. 😜
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aggie57 (02-21-2022)
02-21-2022, 09:15 AM
#320
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we've yet to hear about the maximum charge or energy content allowed in the EV batteries during shipment. There should be a limitation same as gas to reduce the effects I'd think.
02-21-2022, 09:18 AM
#321
RL Community Team
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Laptops, smartphones, and a host of other devices are shipped in massive quantities with the same type of batteries.
02-21-2022, 09:19 AM
#322
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02-21-2022, 10:20 AM
#323
Three Wheelin'
While EV fires make news, gasoline powered cars are 100x more likely to catch on fire per a study done by the NTSB.
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gover...ires-than-evs/
The last VW/Porsche carrier that caught ablaze and sunk was in 2019, with no EVs on board. Given the potential that gasoline powered cars are responsible for two ship carrier fires in the past three years, perhaps, it might make sense to temporarily stop the transportation of gasoline powered VW cars until the problem can be studied further. 😜
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gover...ires-than-evs/
The last VW/Porsche carrier that caught ablaze and sunk was in 2019, with no EVs on board. Given the potential that gasoline powered cars are responsible for two ship carrier fires in the past three years, perhaps, it might make sense to temporarily stop the transportation of gasoline powered VW cars until the problem can be studied further. 😜
I agree with you on this assessment, but my concern is that these facts won't necessarily stop the typical hysteria and pendulum swing that often follows a "major" event. I would not be surprised to see new challenges to shipping EVs coming from the regulators, the shippers and the insurers. Even though EVs may not increase the chance of a fire, they do increase the challenges and complexities of extinguishing a fire when they are part of the "fuel source". I would not be surprised to see new requirements (coming from any or all of the three sources) around enhanced fire suppression or "fire breaks" on ships carrying EVs. To be clear, I don't think (without more info) that they would be beneficial or cost effective, but since when does logic and reason get in the way with emotional reaction and PR concerns?
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detansinn (02-21-2022)
02-21-2022, 11:12 AM
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02-21-2022, 11:26 AM
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While EV fires make news, gasoline powered cars are 100x more likely to catch on fire per a study done by the NTSB.
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gover...ires-than-evs/
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gover...ires-than-evs/
Lies. Damned lies. And statistics.
Every time - twice now - that I pull back a veil on the “100x” claim I find more evidence that the claim seems to be the result of statistics being used incorrectly, for a specific purpose and perpetrated on people that neither know nor care about the definition of a confounding variable.
02-21-2022, 11:28 AM
#326
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02-21-2022, 11:44 AM
#327
It doesn't matter what caused the fire there are many things that can cause a fire at sea, the problem is that once a Lithium Ion battery catches fire it is very difficult to put out. There are more and more sources pointing to this as a contributing factor in the severity of this particular fire. If that becomes very clear the shippers/insurers will limit the shipping to EVs until proper fire suppression techniques can be instituted
Gasoline cars may catch on fire more often, but the fires are usually put out quickly once firefighters are on the scene, EV fires are very hard to put out and they often reignite due to thermal runaway in the batteries once damaged.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/burning...an-11645385571
Last edited by malba2366; 02-21-2022 at 11:52 AM.
02-21-2022, 11:48 AM
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What are the chances that at some point in the future the decision will be made that EVs can't share the same cargo ship with gas and diesel powered vehicles?
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
I think we've already found out that the realistic fire hazards are greater for EVs than fossil fueled vehicles. And as energy density get higher in future battery designs, I don't expect that trend to reverse.
EVs have a long way to go to be truly competitive with the internal combustion engine anyway. Quick, what is the volume and mass of an EV vehicle battery that gives 300 miles range in a specific vehicle,
as compared to the size and weight of a full tank of gas that will give you the same range? Well, a Taycan battery is close to 1400 pounds. And that's taken it as far as 280 miles in testing.
Battery energy density has a LONG way to go before it becomes pound-for-pound comparable to fossil fuels. Plus gas tanks don't self ignite just because someone poked a hole in them.
And, a discharged Li-Ion battery is still flammable. It just won't self-ignite if damaged while fully discharged. It's the heat generated in the short circuit in a charged battery that starts the electrolyte on fire.
I honestly think these factors are going to ensure that the internal combustion engine will be around for a long time to come. Trying to make an energy storage system truly SAFE when its very design is intrinsically
prone to self-ignition when damaged is a very tough problem to solve.
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detansinn (02-21-2022)
02-21-2022, 02:52 PM
#330
All all those lovely cars just gone. Terrible. The Bentley Lambos and Porsches would have been treasured for years, what a waste.
I am the biggest supporter of new technology you will ever meet and I have driven over 140,000 miles in electric cars.
Bring on V-TOL and hydrogen power, all fine by me.
The idea of driving a diesel or petrol engine car in a city is terrible for air quality. We all know that. It has been terrible for years.
However, if you you were just to replace all the 289,000,000 ICE cars in the USA with lithium powered electric cars overnight, or even a few years, would be an environmental disaster. Imagine the energy required to do that.
I think it might take a while.
Dont forget, plenty of electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, just saying. Maybe 60% in 2020?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Not to mention which, plenty of electricity is lost in transmission through the grid and transformers by the time it gets to your wheels.
So it is not as clear cut as some new Model 3 owners have been eulogizing to me recently. The electricity has to come from somewhere.
I am the biggest supporter of new technology you will ever meet and I have driven over 140,000 miles in electric cars.
Bring on V-TOL and hydrogen power, all fine by me.
The idea of driving a diesel or petrol engine car in a city is terrible for air quality. We all know that. It has been terrible for years.
However, if you you were just to replace all the 289,000,000 ICE cars in the USA with lithium powered electric cars overnight, or even a few years, would be an environmental disaster. Imagine the energy required to do that.
I think it might take a while.
Dont forget, plenty of electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, just saying. Maybe 60% in 2020?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
Not to mention which, plenty of electricity is lost in transmission through the grid and transformers by the time it gets to your wheels.
So it is not as clear cut as some new Model 3 owners have been eulogizing to me recently. The electricity has to come from somewhere.
Last edited by politeperson; 02-21-2022 at 02:54 PM.