992 Carrera T Club
12-19-2023, 08:51 PM
My understanding at higher speeds rear steers same direction as fronts…effectively extending the wheelbase for more stability during higher speed cornering. Anyway, my T without RWS feels plenty stable thru corners at ridiculous speeds….
The best thing I heard this engineer say in that vid…
("to make the car fun to drive, I love to go sideways")
The best thing I heard this engineer say in that vid…
("to make the car fun to drive, I love to go sideways")And, you don't want to drift the 911, especially if you don't drift or move cars at the limit for most of the time.
Watch some videos from PEC, where they use the "kick/sliding plate".
Most have no idea how to catch a sliding 911. And again, explains why Porsche did not only remove the RAS, but installed some crutches to compensate for its absence ("differently tuned" PASM, PSM, steering ratio, etc.)
12-19-2023, 09:00 PM
My definition of pure is to have the least amount of computer intervention possible. That's obviously impossible with modern cars, but on a spectrum I think you can have more and less pure driving experiences. Someone else's definition of pure might be much more basic. For example it's available in stick and it's RWD and that checks all the boxes for them. For others it's whatever combination of different factors. For me it's computers and assistance systems. Even if they ultimately make the car go faster
A manual T, without RAS is still far from pure anything. You have servo everything and drive by wire, huge tires and wheels, etc. A manual Miata, or a Super 7...now we are talking. But one of those older ones, with carburetors and no computers to tell me how much I can accelerate, turn or brake.
The RAS tries to eliminate the disadvantages of a bigger wheelbase. And it does a good job. Cars have become huge nowadays.
12-19-2023, 09:01 PM
I learned to drive on "pure" cars and it was a while until I started to have access to more modern cars. It bugs me to no end when I drive something and a bunch of CPUs, running code, are telling me what and how much is allowed.
A manual T, without RAS is still far from pure anything. You have servo everything and drive by wire, huge tires and wheels, etc. A manual Miata, or a Super 7...now we are talking. But one of those older ones, with carburetors and no computers to tell me how much I can accelerate, turn or brake.
The RAS tries to eliminate the disadvantages of a bigger wheelbase. And it does a good job. Cars have become huge nowadays.
A manual T, without RAS is still far from pure anything. You have servo everything and drive by wire, huge tires and wheels, etc. A manual Miata, or a Super 7...now we are talking. But one of those older ones, with carburetors and no computers to tell me how much I can accelerate, turn or brake.
The RAS tries to eliminate the disadvantages of a bigger wheelbase. And it does a good job. Cars have become huge nowadays.
I have a BRZ and had 2 miatas in the past. One of them I built into an Exocet. And I am looking at getting another Miata because the BRZ has way too long of a wheelbase for the type of car that it is
Last edited by VarTheVar; 12-19-2023 at 09:02 PM.
12-19-2023, 09:07 PM
And the ECU coupled with direct injection. Earlier, you had to listen and feel when the engine didn't like your throttle position/input and change accordingly (throttle and gear) or it died or chocked.
Nowadays, you just happily press the pedals like a cyclist and hold onto the wheel. Some silicone, a few code lines and small bursts of electricity are doing the thinking and everything else for you.
12-19-2023, 09:12 PM
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ClubRacer523 (12-20-2023)
12-19-2023, 09:23 PM
for my front tires, I will probably do a negative 2 or 2.5 camber I think I will leave the Toe at 0
The rear tires will be a negative 2 as well I dont think I need more. I think I might do .10 degrees out on the left and right side.
But I have to talk to the shop we go to. We will discuss what exactly is recommended for my driving style, how long I want my tires to last, and how many track days I will go to a year. I believe if I do camber like this I can get 10k miles per set of tires of highway miles or 12 track days Rocking Cup 2s.
He may also just recomend leaving it stock for a year or two so we shall see
The rear tires will be a negative 2 as well I dont think I need more. I think I might do .10 degrees out on the left and right side.
But I have to talk to the shop we go to. We will discuss what exactly is recommended for my driving style, how long I want my tires to last, and how many track days I will go to a year. I believe if I do camber like this I can get 10k miles per set of tires of highway miles or 12 track days Rocking Cup 2s.
He may also just recomend leaving it stock for a year or two so we shall see
The GT3 street/track "recommend factory setting" is 0 and 0.10, front and rear.
In the spec sheet shown by @Macboy, there is a spec range listed (will aks if this shop recommendation or official spec range from manufacturer), where the front recommended range is 0.7-0.15°. Even 0.07 would be too conservative for me.
Will go on thursday for the alignment and curios what I currently have, because it feels almost perfect (a smidge of understeer out of slow corners under acceleration needs to be cured away). 0.04 and 0.12 seems like a good compromise to build on, based on how it will feel.
Unless tracking a lot and using Cup2 (in which case your 0 toe in front will make the tire a little harder to warm up), I guess 1.5-1.7 neg camber for the front is more than enough. In the rear anything between 1 and 1.4 too. The car has already a 305 tire and good grip.
Also, remember, you can play with tire pressures too.
12-19-2023, 09:26 PM
I guess you can't get those while parked at cars and coffee or doing pulls on the highway.
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ClubRacer523 (12-20-2023)
12-19-2023, 09:31 PM
But, it also depends on what you expect and want from your 911. And what options do you need/want.
12-19-2023, 09:33 PM
I'm not guessing. They always announce the spec of the car they're driving. They always say it has RAS. I agree with the second statement.
As for taking corners at 250kph, if that was a valid use case for me, then I might have RAS. But I'm never going to do that. But again, that's totally missing the point. The computer assisted systems are not invisible. They are always apparent and a lot of people don't like that
As for taking corners at 250kph, if that was a valid use case for me, then I might have RAS. But I'm never going to do that. But again, that's totally missing the point. The computer assisted systems are not invisible. They are always apparent and a lot of people don't like that
EDIT: and another one joins the list. Happy feet.
Last edited by Uhu; 12-19-2023 at 09:40 PM.
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Cartod (12-19-2023)
12-19-2023, 09:45 PM
With all due respect, 45-65 mph is not quite "ridiculous speed"
And, you don't want to drift the 911, especially if you don't drift or move cars at the limit for most of the time.
Watch some videos from PEC, where they use the "kick/sliding plate".
Most have no idea how to catch a sliding 911. And again, explains why Porsche did not only remove the RAS, but installed some crutches to compensate for its absence ("differently tuned" PASM, PSM, steering ratio, etc.)
And, you don't want to drift the 911, especially if you don't drift or move cars at the limit for most of the time.
Watch some videos from PEC, where they use the "kick/sliding plate".
Most have no idea how to catch a sliding 911. And again, explains why Porsche did not only remove the RAS, but installed some crutches to compensate for its absence ("differently tuned" PASM, PSM, steering ratio, etc.)
Yeah, he mentions the tuning differences. I don’t think he’s talking about Tokyo drift, ha. My favorite car movie BTW. I found his slide comment most amusing in vid….if u catch my drift - pun intended, ha.
Last edited by ECNJ; 12-19-2023 at 11:05 PM.
12-19-2023, 10:06 PM
It’s the first time we have heard directly from one of the Porsche engineers about the rationale behind why RAS was left off the S/T. The man in the video seems like a credible source. He was a lead chassis engineer on the 997 GT3, the GT2 RS, the 991R, and now the illustrious 992 S/T. Listen to what he says at the 7:04 mark in the video:
Presenter: “One of the questions I had coming here is... I loved the rear steer in all your cars since the 991 generation. Why did you get rid of it?”
Porsche Engineer: “I think the most important reason is to improve the weight of the car, to get out some weight, because this car is the lightest 992 we have ever done and we wanted to achieve some numbers to get as much weight out of the car as possible. The second reason is we wanted to have a very clear driving behavior.. so very analog with all its disadvantages as well.”
Presenter: “One of the questions I had coming here is... I loved the rear steer in all your cars since the 991 generation. Why did you get rid of it?”
Porsche Engineer: “I think the most important reason is to improve the weight of the car, to get out some weight, because this car is the lightest 992 we have ever done and we wanted to achieve some numbers to get as much weight out of the car as possible. The second reason is we wanted to have a very clear driving behavior.. so very analog with all its disadvantages as well.”
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Macboy (12-20-2023)
12-19-2023, 10:06 PM
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Cartod (12-19-2023)
12-19-2023, 10:15 PM
12-19-2023, 10:20 PM
I would like an S allocation as I am on wait the list for one, at MSRP.
Last edited by RatherJaded; 12-19-2023 at 10:33 PM.
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