A place to discuss all things ADM
#2701
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But the want for a GT car is often based on how one imagines driving it will be like. Then someone gets the car and may notice that it's stiff and lacks low to mid range torque, and may conclude that any of the non-GT variants is a better road car - great handling and amply fast, but more comfortable, and can even have a posh interior. I say this an owner of two GT cars and several non-GT cars. After driving the GT cars on the track, they really feel wasted and out of their element when driving them on the road.
#2702
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This was true for the 991 generation, but not sure it really drove down resale prices as much as increased production did.
#2703
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I can see that, of course. I haven't yet driven the 992 GT3 yet (my Touring is still sitting in Davisville) but sort of knew what to expect as I have driven a RS 4.0, 991.1 RS and a 911R (which may technically not count). I know I can't get near the limit of what the car can do on the street, but it will still provide a more visceral experience than some of the other 992 variants (I had a 992 TTS).
A lot of the visceral perception is due to the soundtrack, and I do think the GT cars generally have a better soundtrack. But that can be fixed somewhat in the non-GT cars by modifying the exhaust.
Last edited by Manifold; 11-02-2022 at 11:13 AM.
#2704
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Here’s a new one. I have a friend who gets in and out of cars relatively frequently, buying in cash at a discount and then selling with ‘minimal loss’ usually within a year. Apparently this makes him some kind of “expert” on the economics of car sales - and, subsequently, an “expert” on the GT3 market which, according to him, “is no different than any other car because it isn’t a limited or special edition.”
We had an argument the other day because he insists that there are “no new cars being sold by dealers with $50-100K ADMs,” because “it is illegal” and that “if Porsche corporate knew they were selling new cars over sticker they would lose their dealership,” as “Porsche doesn’t make any more money if the dealer sells over MSRP.” So “all the GT3s being sold over MSRP are used.” He also went on to insist that “no previous GT3 iterations were ever sold new for over MSRP” and that “it’s only because of the recent market, where “everything is going over MSRP” that the GT3s are carrying a premium.
Remember, though, he also said that dealers couldn’t legally sell for over MSRP.
He then went on to give me the following “advice” - he said if I didn’t sell my Touring within a year of getting it I would lose “at least $100,000” by keeping the car any longer than that.
FWIW, I got my Touring at MSRP - PTS, 6MT, LWBs.
I’m just posting this because I think others would enjoy reading it - particularly if they’ve paid an “illegal” ADM.
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Remember, though, he also said that dealers couldn’t legally sell for over MSRP.
He then went on to give me the following “advice” - he said if I didn’t sell my Touring within a year of getting it I would lose “at least $100,000” by keeping the car any longer than that.
FWIW, I got my Touring at MSRP - PTS, 6MT, LWBs.
I’m just posting this because I think others would enjoy reading it - particularly if they’ve paid an “illegal” ADM.
Assuming that you managed to pay MSRP for that one as well, if the latter, then you essentially paid an ADM on the GT3T.
#2705
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I did have to pay an ADM of $35K on the Tecnica, but considering the small profit on the TTS and the lack of ADM on the Touring I'm sort of ok with it when you average it all out (even though I know that logic is completely flawed).
#2706
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I don't think people can generally get near the limits of any of these cars on public roads, which is part of the reason for my not enjoying the GT cars on the road. The GT cars don't really 'wake up' until you're going insane speeds, whereas the non-GT cars feel more awake at semi-sane speeds.
A lot of the visceral perception is due to the soundtrack, and I do think the GT cars generally have a better soundtrack. But that can be fixed somewhat in the non-GT cars by modifying the exhaust.
A lot of the visceral perception is due to the soundtrack, and I do think the GT cars generally have a better soundtrack. But that can be fixed somewhat in the non-GT cars by modifying the exhaust.
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#2707
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Sometimes I like the snugness of LWB, but also like the comfort of regular seats which have decent bolsters. We talked to our dealer about trading in the Cayman R which has LWB, and he said those seats are a big negative for selling the car.
Agreed that it's a win for GT cars on sound, but again my M3 sounds just as good.
I don't really understand the current market for these cars, and am not a typical owner/buyer/seller (if there's such a thing as typical), since wife and I both like cars, we have a lot of cars (nine), and we both drive on track.
Last edited by Manifold; 11-02-2022 at 12:18 PM.
#2708
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You are trying to make a rational argument out of an emotional one. You buy a GT car because you think they are fun. Not because they make any sense. And, most people who own them have another vehicle that is comfortable and quiet. IMO no BMW is a 911 GT car. Not close. If it is to you why waste your money on a 911 GT car?
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Diablo Dude (11-02-2022)
#2709
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You are trying to make a rational argument out of an emotional one. You buy a GT car because you think they are fun. Not because they make any sense. And, most people who own them have another vehicle that is comfortable and quiet. IMO no BMW is a 911 GT car. Not close. If it is to you why waste your money on a 911 GT car?
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IrwinMFletcher (11-03-2022)
#2710
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- Interest rates have doubled / tripled
- The GT4RS and GT3RS are here
- We are 1.5 years into production
- We are headed into winter
- Stocks are down 20%+
- There are 130+ used GT3s on AT
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#2711
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- Interest rates have doubled / tripled
- The GT4RS and GT3RS are here
- We are 1.5 years into production
- We are headed into winter
- Stocks are down 20%+
- There are 130+ used GT3s on AT
Interests rates are likely to go up further. My guess is that stock prices will go lower next year. People bought toys during the pandemic, and when they get bored with playing with them, they may be inclined to sell them before prices keep going lower.
#2712
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You are trying to make a rational argument out of an emotional one. You buy a GT car because you think they are fun. Not because they make any sense. And, most people who own them have another vehicle that is comfortable and quiet. IMO no BMW is a 911 GT car. Not close. If it is to you why waste your money on a 911 GT car?
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Last edited by Diablo Dude; 11-02-2022 at 02:04 PM.
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carcommander (11-02-2022)
#2713
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I was offered a GT3 allocation with a $65,000 ADm and I could tell they were open to an even lower hard bid with a large deposit. I think the dealers are worried that with a $5,000 deposit on a deal with a larger than potentially higher than market ADM six months out when the car arrives a buyer might just decide to not take the allocation leaving with them having to find a home for the car.
No one is walking after paying the ADM.
#2714
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I will pull commentary from the financial markets to make analogies and guesses on GT prices. Yes equities down 20% YTD. Many analysts believe we have not yet hit the stock market rock bottom along with the ugly capitulation which always marks the bottom. I doubt that demand collapses or that supply jumps up for these cars. After a year the market has matured and solidiified while withstanding some big economic shockwaves. Supply has been good for those who will pay the price.
The equity forecasts say the ultimate bottom may hit 30% to 40 % below 12/31/21. So for the GT cars the price trend will continue downward which has always been the direction two years after new model arrival. Maybe supply will nudge up a bit. Adm for new GT3 cars not terribly relevant as there are very few to be abvailable and dealers now more focused to sell models GT3 RS and GT4 RS. The used resale market will now govern for 992.1's. I predict prices drift lower towards MSRP over the next year, staying slightly higher for the best specifications. Sure Touring -manuals will hold the premium. Nothing abrupt or upsetting expected. There will be more downward price pressure on the 991.2's as they will be less desirable among more current GT choices.
No one is left to buy these GT cars on speculation for profits, those guys have cleared out. The Rolex Daytona has dropped in price from near $50k to current around $34k, that is another proxy for market direction. Real buyers and real sellers will make the market here going forward. You buy it because you wnat it and accept the realities that cars depreciate and have carry cost. What the hell if you drive the heck out of this car and sell it for 10%-20% less than original cost, such a bargain for living good!
This is all favorable for the dedicated Porsche owner. The speculative bubbles are disruptive to the enjoyment of long term GT ownership. when the curve gets to bottom, most of us will be happier to just talk about the fun of driving. BTW this is all going to work out better than that WCOM I bought 20 some years ago.....
The equity forecasts say the ultimate bottom may hit 30% to 40 % below 12/31/21. So for the GT cars the price trend will continue downward which has always been the direction two years after new model arrival. Maybe supply will nudge up a bit. Adm for new GT3 cars not terribly relevant as there are very few to be abvailable and dealers now more focused to sell models GT3 RS and GT4 RS. The used resale market will now govern for 992.1's. I predict prices drift lower towards MSRP over the next year, staying slightly higher for the best specifications. Sure Touring -manuals will hold the premium. Nothing abrupt or upsetting expected. There will be more downward price pressure on the 991.2's as they will be less desirable among more current GT choices.
No one is left to buy these GT cars on speculation for profits, those guys have cleared out. The Rolex Daytona has dropped in price from near $50k to current around $34k, that is another proxy for market direction. Real buyers and real sellers will make the market here going forward. You buy it because you wnat it and accept the realities that cars depreciate and have carry cost. What the hell if you drive the heck out of this car and sell it for 10%-20% less than original cost, such a bargain for living good!
This is all favorable for the dedicated Porsche owner. The speculative bubbles are disruptive to the enjoyment of long term GT ownership. when the curve gets to bottom, most of us will be happier to just talk about the fun of driving. BTW this is all going to work out better than that WCOM I bought 20 some years ago.....
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#2715
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- digital dash - speaking for myself and surely a number of ppl here - moving to an iPad/Tesla style display is a downgrade vs improvement the way I see it (experience wise, not tech wise).
- HP - the 992 GT3 doesn't need an additional 10-15hp it will likely see in the facelift (if that), the definition of 'improvement' to me is something that was needed, HP is not such IMO
- pricing - extrapolating the base MSRP increase of ~$9K year over year (MY22-23), for MY25 (992.2 GT3), there would be likely a $20K price bump from where we are today. High tides raise all boats. There cannot be a complete de-coupling of 992.1 vs 992.2 pricing, meaning latter will likely have an upward 'pull' on the former.
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