991 pricing is out of control right now
01-20-2021, 12:49 PM
#226
Rennlist Member
I find these base vs S competitions somewhat pointless—buy what you like, and, in the case of used cars, the individual spec would matter to me more than standard, S, T, or GTS. First requirement (for me) would be the 7MT, so if four candidates were PDK and one was 7MT, I'd have my answer.
Someone mentioned the 991.2 Carrera has all the same problems as the 991.1 Carrera—but it's actually worse than the 991.1 in terms of suspension because one could at least order sport suspension in the 991.1. With that said, other than ride height, the 991.2 Carrera's handling is a significant upgrade over that of any version of the 991.1 Carrera line, and the standard suspension is hardly soft. In fact, the brief for 991.2 was to reduce the differences between the setups—making the standard suspension more sporting and the sport suspension more comfortable, so that the difference was primarily ride height (and, I am guessing, they decided to raise the Sport PASM setup a bit). Unless you drive them back to back, they're not all that far apart. Only reason I went for springs in a 991.2 Carrera was to address the SUV ride height—it definitely handled better in stock form, and I'll readdress if I keep the car. For a street car, the standard 991.2 Carrera is, imho, a near-perfect chassis with setup mastery to rival the 987.2 Spyder. On track, I find myself wanting more spring, but that's a path that eventually leads you to GT3…at which point I'd sell and look for a GT3.
As for an LSD, I'd prefer one, but I am not sure it's the fatal flaw some say it is? Rarely do I find myself running hard on a back road and thinking "Man, what this 911 needs is a limited-slip." It's only in the occasional uphill exit that I get a bit of inside wheel spin. Of course, an LSD offers other benefits, but the 991.2 Carrera chassis is so, so good (again, for a fun road car). A Porsche engineer who oversaw the development of 5-6 (?) generations of the 911 before he retired, mentioned something interesting in an interview about where he liked to test 911s, and what he liked. Something to the effect of the car being easier to drive quickly, or more free-wheeling, without a limited-slip.
As to engines, I like all three of the tunes for the 991.2 3.0—so again the car's spec in terms of transmission, seats, color, etc would be a deciding factor over which engine tune. The "370" horse engine is plenty fast for my purposes on the street (and I've liked 500-900 horsepower just fine when I've had it under foot in various test cars), but more important to me is the way an engine makes power—and I do think the 370-horse engine has a small advantage here in terms of the way it responds. Which only makes sense. Again, it wouldn't be enough to sway me to, say, a PDK Carrera or Carrera GTS over a 7MT Carrera S. YMMV.
The 991.2 Carrera and Carrera S blew me away in Tenerife years ago—they were easily the best "standard" 911s I had tried up to that point, even thinking back to the SC, 993, 2.2 T, etc. They needed for nothing, and there was a lot of choice available. The S with RAS and Sport PASM and PDK was more proficient and noticeably more planted when braking into a fast turn, but I found the standard Carrera 7MT simpler, more honest, and a bit more playful. I preferred it—and I liked it on 19s, too. A few months ago, I heard from a friend who recalled one of the factory drivers (919 or RSR) said, "The standard 911 is the best car we make right now, and all the 911 you need." He was referring to the 991.2 Carrera, and I found it fascinating that a Motorsport guy would say that over a GT3 or Turbo—but it might be more a reflection of his preferences than the cars involved. Kind of like these threads.
I can easily see where someone would prefer a Carrera S or GTS with PDK, PDCC, Sport PASM, RAS, etc. All good—all of these are great cars, and there's something for everyone in them.
Someone mentioned the 991.2 Carrera has all the same problems as the 991.1 Carrera—but it's actually worse than the 991.1 in terms of suspension because one could at least order sport suspension in the 991.1. With that said, other than ride height, the 991.2 Carrera's handling is a significant upgrade over that of any version of the 991.1 Carrera line, and the standard suspension is hardly soft. In fact, the brief for 991.2 was to reduce the differences between the setups—making the standard suspension more sporting and the sport suspension more comfortable, so that the difference was primarily ride height (and, I am guessing, they decided to raise the Sport PASM setup a bit). Unless you drive them back to back, they're not all that far apart. Only reason I went for springs in a 991.2 Carrera was to address the SUV ride height—it definitely handled better in stock form, and I'll readdress if I keep the car. For a street car, the standard 991.2 Carrera is, imho, a near-perfect chassis with setup mastery to rival the 987.2 Spyder. On track, I find myself wanting more spring, but that's a path that eventually leads you to GT3…at which point I'd sell and look for a GT3.
As for an LSD, I'd prefer one, but I am not sure it's the fatal flaw some say it is? Rarely do I find myself running hard on a back road and thinking "Man, what this 911 needs is a limited-slip." It's only in the occasional uphill exit that I get a bit of inside wheel spin. Of course, an LSD offers other benefits, but the 991.2 Carrera chassis is so, so good (again, for a fun road car). A Porsche engineer who oversaw the development of 5-6 (?) generations of the 911 before he retired, mentioned something interesting in an interview about where he liked to test 911s, and what he liked. Something to the effect of the car being easier to drive quickly, or more free-wheeling, without a limited-slip.
As to engines, I like all three of the tunes for the 991.2 3.0—so again the car's spec in terms of transmission, seats, color, etc would be a deciding factor over which engine tune. The "370" horse engine is plenty fast for my purposes on the street (and I've liked 500-900 horsepower just fine when I've had it under foot in various test cars), but more important to me is the way an engine makes power—and I do think the 370-horse engine has a small advantage here in terms of the way it responds. Which only makes sense. Again, it wouldn't be enough to sway me to, say, a PDK Carrera or Carrera GTS over a 7MT Carrera S. YMMV.
The 991.2 Carrera and Carrera S blew me away in Tenerife years ago—they were easily the best "standard" 911s I had tried up to that point, even thinking back to the SC, 993, 2.2 T, etc. They needed for nothing, and there was a lot of choice available. The S with RAS and Sport PASM and PDK was more proficient and noticeably more planted when braking into a fast turn, but I found the standard Carrera 7MT simpler, more honest, and a bit more playful. I preferred it—and I liked it on 19s, too. A few months ago, I heard from a friend who recalled one of the factory drivers (919 or RSR) said, "The standard 911 is the best car we make right now, and all the 911 you need." He was referring to the 991.2 Carrera, and I found it fascinating that a Motorsport guy would say that over a GT3 or Turbo—but it might be more a reflection of his preferences than the cars involved. Kind of like these threads.
I can easily see where someone would prefer a Carrera S or GTS with PDK, PDCC, Sport PASM, RAS, etc. All good—all of these are great cars, and there's something for everyone in them.
Last edited by stout; 01-20-2021 at 12:58 PM.
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01-20-2021, 01:00 PM
#227
Rennlist Member
Only thing that should keep someone from buying an S over a base is $$ unless they’re just looking for a GT cruiser. When you start adding it up - the S transitions into a drivers car. Suspension, big reds, +HP, wheels, PTV+, eLSD. Not to mention sporty options that aren’t available in a base model (RAS, PDCC).
The disparity is even worse now with the 992 as the MT is only available in the S trim.
The disparity is even worse now with the 992 as the MT is only available in the S trim.
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smiles11 (01-20-2021)
01-20-2021, 01:18 PM
#229
Originally Posted by PAPorscheGuy;[url=tel:17175936
17175936[/url]]Great question. This is an area of much confusion.
Base Standard: Normal suspension
Base Option: PASM 10mm lower with option for stiffer
S Standard: PASM 10mm lower with option for stiffer
S Option: PASM Sport 20mm lower and stiffer
Standard features will not show on the window sticker and build sheet because they are included in the Trim level (Base or S). I personally love to use PASM on my “S” when I am feeling sporty. I press the “Sport” button on my console which puts the car in Sport mode and turns on my PSE (Porsche Sport Exhaust). When I’m really feeling it (and the road is smooth), I press the “shock” button and it stiffens the suspension. Btw, you can also feel the Torque Vectoring rear (standard on the S and not available on the base). So, I would recommend PASM, but not the PASM Sport option ($890) - even harder and lower. Hope this helps. Note: The Sport and Sport Chrono packages and PDCC suspension options are something else entirely. Very confusing Porsche!
Base Standard: Normal suspension
Base Option: PASM 10mm lower with option for stiffer
S Standard: PASM 10mm lower with option for stiffer
S Option: PASM Sport 20mm lower and stiffer
Standard features will not show on the window sticker and build sheet because they are included in the Trim level (Base or S). I personally love to use PASM on my “S” when I am feeling sporty. I press the “Sport” button on my console which puts the car in Sport mode and turns on my PSE (Porsche Sport Exhaust). When I’m really feeling it (and the road is smooth), I press the “shock” button and it stiffens the suspension. Btw, you can also feel the Torque Vectoring rear (standard on the S and not available on the base). So, I would recommend PASM, but not the PASM Sport option ($890) - even harder and lower. Hope this helps. Note: The Sport and Sport Chrono packages and PDCC suspension options are something else entirely. Very confusing Porsche!
01-20-2021, 01:18 PM
#230
I find these base vs S competitions somewhat pointless—buy what you like, and, in the case of used cars, the individual spec would matter to me more than standard, S, T, or GTS. First requirement (for me) would be the 7MT, so if four candidates were PDK and one was 7MT, I'd have my answer.
Last edited by PAPorscheGuy; 01-20-2021 at 01:19 PM.
01-20-2021, 02:28 PM
#233
Originally Posted by PAPorscheGuy;[url=tel:17176552
17176552[/url]]Excellent point. The total spec needs to be considered, not just the Trim level, and I would also pick the MT. But, if you were buying new, you would also have your answer at the Trim-level because the base 992 does not offer MT, so you would have to buy an "S" to get your MT priority.
01-20-2021, 02:34 PM
#234
Rennlist Member
Choosing between loaded Carrera 7MT, loaded Carrera T 7MT, and stripped Carrera GTS 7MT wasn't easy—and I still question my choice sometimes. A recent drive in a GTS…with PDK, no less…had me really rethinking my choice again, and there were more than shades of older GT3 goodness in that car's handling and any added lag was minimal and offset by the extra power and the total package.
All of these are really good cars.
01-20-2021, 02:44 PM
#235
Rennlist Member
There is no reason to buy a base over an S unless you need a more comfortable car.
Base 991.2 suffers from the same problems as base 991.1. Taller gearing, soft suspension, plain Jane brakes, and no differential. Suspension and brakes can be fixed but not the other two.
If you are buying the 911 because it’s a sports car, T or better for 991.2. And I would bet good money resale value reflects this in 5 years, just as it does with the 991.1.
Base 991.2 suffers from the same problems as base 991.1. Taller gearing, soft suspension, plain Jane brakes, and no differential. Suspension and brakes can be fixed but not the other two.
If you are buying the 911 because it’s a sports car, T or better for 991.2. And I would bet good money resale value reflects this in 5 years, just as it does with the 991.1.
And as far as resale goes, it is holding its' own. Wonderful machine and I didn't need to spend anymore to be happy.
01-20-2021, 04:49 PM
#237
Pro
Thread Starter
Some missed the point that I was referring to the 991.2 base when talking about how you don't always have to choose the S.
I wouldn't buy a 991 base (well maybe a targa 7mt base, myself) but 991.2 is a different ball game as MOST people don't want the base because of some options but mostly because of power. The turbo cars have taken that reason out of the equation for most people.
I think Stout covered it very well.
I wouldn't buy a 991 base (well maybe a targa 7mt base, myself) but 991.2 is a different ball game as MOST people don't want the base because of some options but mostly because of power. The turbo cars have taken that reason out of the equation for most people.
I think Stout covered it very well.
01-20-2021, 06:40 PM
#238
I find these base vs S competitions somewhat pointless—buy what you like, and, in the case of used cars, the individual spec would matter to me more than standard, S, T, or GTS. First requirement (for me) would be the 7MT, so if four candidates were PDK and one was 7MT, I'd have my answer.
Someone mentioned the 991.2 Carrera has all the same problems as the 991.1 Carrera—but it's actually worse than the 991.1 in terms of suspension because one could at least order sport suspension in the 991.1. With that said, other than ride height, the 991.2 Carrera's handling is a significant upgrade over that of any version of the 991.1 Carrera line, and the standard suspension is hardly soft. In fact, the brief for 991.2 was to reduce the differences between the setups—making the standard suspension more sporting and the sport suspension more comfortable, so that the difference was primarily ride height (and, I am guessing, they decided to raise the Sport PASM setup a bit). Unless you drive them back to back, they're not all that far apart. Only reason I went for springs in a 991.2 Carrera was to address the SUV ride height—it definitely handled better in stock form, and I'll readdress if I keep the car. For a street car, the standard 991.2 Carrera is, imho, a near-perfect chassis with setup mastery to rival the 987.2 Spyder. On track, I find myself wanting more spring, but that's a path that eventually leads you to GT3…at which point I'd sell and look for a GT3.
As for an LSD, I'd prefer one, but I am not sure it's the fatal flaw some say it is? Rarely do I find myself running hard on a back road and thinking "Man, what this 911 needs is a limited-slip." It's only in the occasional uphill exit that I get a bit of inside wheel spin. Of course, an LSD offers other benefits, but the 991.2 Carrera chassis is so, so good (again, for a fun road car). A Porsche engineer who oversaw the development of 5-6 (?) generations of the 911 before he retired, mentioned something interesting in an interview about where he liked to test 911s, and what he liked. Something to the effect of the car being easier to drive quickly, or more free-wheeling, without a limited-slip.
As to engines, I like all three of the tunes for the 991.2 3.0—so again the car's spec in terms of transmission, seats, color, etc would be a deciding factor over which engine tune. The "370" horse engine is plenty fast for my purposes on the street (and I've liked 500-900 horsepower just fine when I've had it under foot in various test cars), but more important to me is the way an engine makes power—and I do think the 370-horse engine has a small advantage here in terms of the way it responds. Which only makes sense. Again, it wouldn't be enough to sway me to, say, a PDK Carrera or Carrera GTS over a 7MT Carrera S. YMMV.
The 991.2 Carrera and Carrera S blew me away in Tenerife years ago—they were easily the best "standard" 911s I had tried up to that point, even thinking back to the SC, 993, 2.2 T, etc. They needed for nothing, and there was a lot of choice available. The S with RAS and Sport PASM and PDK was more proficient and noticeably more planted when braking into a fast turn, but I found the standard Carrera 7MT simpler, more honest, and a bit more playful. I preferred it—and I liked it on 19s, too. A few months ago, I heard from a friend who recalled one of the factory drivers (919 or RSR) said, "The standard 911 is the best car we make right now, and all the 911 you need." He was referring to the 991.2 Carrera, and I found it fascinating that a Motorsport guy would say that over a GT3 or Turbo—but it might be more a reflection of his preferences than the cars involved. Kind of like these threads.
I can easily see where someone would prefer a Carrera S or GTS with PDK, PDCC, Sport PASM, RAS, etc. All good—all of these are great cars, and there's something for everyone in them.
Someone mentioned the 991.2 Carrera has all the same problems as the 991.1 Carrera—but it's actually worse than the 991.1 in terms of suspension because one could at least order sport suspension in the 991.1. With that said, other than ride height, the 991.2 Carrera's handling is a significant upgrade over that of any version of the 991.1 Carrera line, and the standard suspension is hardly soft. In fact, the brief for 991.2 was to reduce the differences between the setups—making the standard suspension more sporting and the sport suspension more comfortable, so that the difference was primarily ride height (and, I am guessing, they decided to raise the Sport PASM setup a bit). Unless you drive them back to back, they're not all that far apart. Only reason I went for springs in a 991.2 Carrera was to address the SUV ride height—it definitely handled better in stock form, and I'll readdress if I keep the car. For a street car, the standard 991.2 Carrera is, imho, a near-perfect chassis with setup mastery to rival the 987.2 Spyder. On track, I find myself wanting more spring, but that's a path that eventually leads you to GT3…at which point I'd sell and look for a GT3.
As for an LSD, I'd prefer one, but I am not sure it's the fatal flaw some say it is? Rarely do I find myself running hard on a back road and thinking "Man, what this 911 needs is a limited-slip." It's only in the occasional uphill exit that I get a bit of inside wheel spin. Of course, an LSD offers other benefits, but the 991.2 Carrera chassis is so, so good (again, for a fun road car). A Porsche engineer who oversaw the development of 5-6 (?) generations of the 911 before he retired, mentioned something interesting in an interview about where he liked to test 911s, and what he liked. Something to the effect of the car being easier to drive quickly, or more free-wheeling, without a limited-slip.
As to engines, I like all three of the tunes for the 991.2 3.0—so again the car's spec in terms of transmission, seats, color, etc would be a deciding factor over which engine tune. The "370" horse engine is plenty fast for my purposes on the street (and I've liked 500-900 horsepower just fine when I've had it under foot in various test cars), but more important to me is the way an engine makes power—and I do think the 370-horse engine has a small advantage here in terms of the way it responds. Which only makes sense. Again, it wouldn't be enough to sway me to, say, a PDK Carrera or Carrera GTS over a 7MT Carrera S. YMMV.
The 991.2 Carrera and Carrera S blew me away in Tenerife years ago—they were easily the best "standard" 911s I had tried up to that point, even thinking back to the SC, 993, 2.2 T, etc. They needed for nothing, and there was a lot of choice available. The S with RAS and Sport PASM and PDK was more proficient and noticeably more planted when braking into a fast turn, but I found the standard Carrera 7MT simpler, more honest, and a bit more playful. I preferred it—and I liked it on 19s, too. A few months ago, I heard from a friend who recalled one of the factory drivers (919 or RSR) said, "The standard 911 is the best car we make right now, and all the 911 you need." He was referring to the 991.2 Carrera, and I found it fascinating that a Motorsport guy would say that over a GT3 or Turbo—but it might be more a reflection of his preferences than the cars involved. Kind of like these threads.
I can easily see where someone would prefer a Carrera S or GTS with PDK, PDCC, Sport PASM, RAS, etc. All good—all of these are great cars, and there's something for everyone in them.
Now (taking the NA vs turbo off the table) the only thing the 991.1 can't overcome with regards to handling with minor aftermarket tweaking is RWS.
01-20-2021, 06:43 PM
#239
Correct.
Choosing between loaded Carrera 7MT, loaded Carrera T 7MT, and stripped Carrera GTS 7MT wasn't easy—and I still question my choice sometimes. A recent drive in a GTS…with PDK, no less…had me really rethinking my choice again, and there were more than shades of older GT3 goodness in that car's handling and any added lag was minimal and offset by the extra power and the total package.
All of these are really good cars.
Choosing between loaded Carrera 7MT, loaded Carrera T 7MT, and stripped Carrera GTS 7MT wasn't easy—and I still question my choice sometimes. A recent drive in a GTS…with PDK, no less…had me really rethinking my choice again, and there were more than shades of older GT3 goodness in that car's handling and any added lag was minimal and offset by the extra power and the total package.
All of these are really good cars.
01-20-2021, 06:47 PM
#240
Three Wheelin'
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