Stop Sale Campaign on 911 with Sport Chrono?
11-17-2020, 01:50 PM
#91
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Let's assume your reading of the allegation is correct. (I may, or may not, read it later.)
Why? What *damage* to buyers was caused? You can't just file a lawsuit because your feelings have been hurt. You must be able to prove damage has occurred and to be able to reasonably quantify the damage.
Now, if this goes the way of DieselGate the "damage" will be the direct result of government forcing either castration of the cars or preventing registration. But, make no mistake, as of now, no damage has been done to owners.
Why? What *damage* to buyers was caused? You can't just file a lawsuit because your feelings have been hurt. You must be able to prove damage has occurred and to be able to reasonably quantify the damage.
Now, if this goes the way of DieselGate the "damage" will be the direct result of government forcing either castration of the cars or preventing registration. But, make no mistake, as of now, no damage has been done to owners.
Last edited by AdamSanta85; 11-17-2020 at 01:52 PM.
11-17-2020, 01:59 PM
#92
Drifting
For those with TL;DR syndrome: basis of lawsuit is that Porsches were less valuable at time of sale because they didn’t meet emission specifications. Thus that owners were “cheated” of “value.” It’s a suit justified by logic so twisted that only those with terminal jealousy - or lawyers - would possibly even try to follow it.
This is a crock. The people bringing that suit are not friends.
Anyone who owns a Porsche and now feel that they have been betrayed and cheated because Sport+ mode results in slightly more NOx in certain situations, then by all means they must immediately go to the local Toyota dealer and trade their 911 in on one or four Prius. They should get out of here and not let the door hit them in the a$$ on the way out.
Anyone who feels betrayed by Porsche over Sport+ mode but complains bitterly about auto-start/stop always being activated after restart is a hypocritical brainless idiot.
Anyone with a functioning brain should have realized that the Sport and Sport+ buttons were “defeat” devices from day one. From. Day. One.
The fundamental problem being that modern emissions regulations result in an situation where many features of “sports cars” result in illegality. Which features? Oh how about rev-matching shifts, 195° engine operating temperatures, throttle response modeled after a cable, flat-shifting, etc.
Why do you think AS/S always defaults to on as of the last few years? Why isn’t Sport+ setting retained through restarts?
The article suggests Porsche actually changed hardware for cars that were tested. We’ll see. This seems not credible. More credible is that the difference between software-controlled transmission strategy and “transmission” is being deliberately conflated for propaganda purposes.
References to DieselGate... VW owners were furious. But not so much at VW. They were furious that government was going to either require castration or prevent registration.
This is a crock. The people bringing that suit are not friends.
Anyone who owns a Porsche and now feel that they have been betrayed and cheated because Sport+ mode results in slightly more NOx in certain situations, then by all means they must immediately go to the local Toyota dealer and trade their 911 in on one or four Prius. They should get out of here and not let the door hit them in the a$$ on the way out.
Anyone who feels betrayed by Porsche over Sport+ mode but complains bitterly about auto-start/stop always being activated after restart is a hypocritical brainless idiot.
Anyone with a functioning brain should have realized that the Sport and Sport+ buttons were “defeat” devices from day one. From. Day. One.
The fundamental problem being that modern emissions regulations result in an situation where many features of “sports cars” result in illegality. Which features? Oh how about rev-matching shifts, 195° engine operating temperatures, throttle response modeled after a cable, flat-shifting, etc.
Why do you think AS/S always defaults to on as of the last few years? Why isn’t Sport+ setting retained through restarts?
The article suggests Porsche actually changed hardware for cars that were tested. We’ll see. This seems not credible. More credible is that the difference between software-controlled transmission strategy and “transmission” is being deliberately conflated for propaganda purposes.
References to DieselGate... VW owners were furious. But not so much at VW. They were furious that government was going to either require castration or prevent registration.
11-17-2020, 02:02 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
Sport Chrono Package.
The Sport Chrono Package including dynamic engine mounts is available
as an option. This integrated system provides simultaneous enhancement for the chassis, engine and transmission,
Included in the package are a performance display, a digital and an analogue stop* watch and the SPORT PLUS button. An additional display in the steering wheel and instrument cluster indicates whether the SPORT buttons and Launch Control have been activated. While activated it fools those stupid emissions regulators who aren't smart enough to realize this is obviously a "defeat" device.
Last edited by AdamSanta85; 11-17-2020 at 02:03 PM.
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11-17-2020, 02:03 PM
#94
I believe the main issue here is that of corporate malfeasance. Should a company be allowed to lie to you about product details and performance?
I suspect that Porsche will reach a settlement that compensates buyers of the vehicles in question. If so, I'll consider it as a partial refund of the Porsche tax.
I suspect that Porsche will reach a settlement that compensates buyers of the vehicles in question. If so, I'll consider it as a partial refund of the Porsche tax.
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11-17-2020, 02:21 PM
#95
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Did Porsche cheat on the letter of the test (as per VW) or simply the "spirit" of the test by not having Sport+ be active by default? It is the first that must be proven - in my mind at least.
Ditto. Your responses simply prove that you never thought about this. It's all magic and unicorn eggs to you.
Unlike VW there is no allegation (yet) that Porsches in *normal* mode violate standards.
Again, if there was bespoke hardware or bespoke software then we are all screwed.
However, if the *only* issue is that Sport/Sport+ changed software then this is a case of the emissions test being retroactively changed in its letter.
The fact that the Sport+ button (probably) violated the spirit of the test is immaterial.
You all need to decide in which world you want to live.
1) A world in which everything is forbidden except that with is expressly allowed.
or
2) Everything is legal except that which is expressly forbidden.
11-17-2020, 02:27 PM
#96
Instructor
Thread Starter
Update - I am not waiting around on what this means and elected to sell my car instead of consign. Overall this experience is the worst I have had as a Porsche owner, yes the timing of it also intersected with my personal desire to sell, but the ambiguity and lack of coordinated communication to the owners is poor. I have no idea if this issue affects value, but it clearly has been determined to effect potential liability to the corporation and as an owner, I too, am affected. I will have no further updates unless I am directly contacted by Porsche.
11-17-2020, 02:33 PM
#97
If you were looking for a used or i guess new 991 this will make the already difficult task even more difficult. If dealers can't sell the models involved, a heck of a lot of supply just went away. Porsche is going to need a quick fix to keep things rolling.
11-17-2020, 02:39 PM
#98
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Anyone who feels betrayed by Porsche over Sport+ mode but complains bitterly about auto-start/stop always being activated after restart is a hypocritical brainless idiot.
Anyone with a functioning brain should have realized that the Sport and Sport+ buttons were “defeat” devices from day one. From. Day. One.
Anyone with a functioning brain should have realized that the Sport and Sport+ buttons were “defeat” devices from day one. From. Day. One.
The language of those should have been ignorance not idiocy. Or, in other words:
Not realizing that Sport+ could - and probably would - have deleterious effects on emissions is ignorant but not idiotic.
Ignorance can be cured.
I am highly agitated by this situation because I have to anticipate explaining to my wife why her 991S is going to be castrated just like her VW diesel. The reason will be either: PAG physically cheated or "Idiots" (not at Porsche).
She is still mad about DieselGate. She loved her VW diesel. She would have kept it forever except for the fear that MA would prohibit registration without castration. That VW was the cheapest car we've ever owned on a per-mile basis specifically because of the buyback program. But, the replacement VW was such a stunning disappointment that it was in the fleet for about 4 months only and thus the damage was depreciation on it.
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11-17-2020, 02:40 PM
#99
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Unless this gets resolved quickly, Porsche dealers will be forced to sell their affected inventory to other dealers that are not constrained buy the 'Stop Sale' or auctions. Dealers will not sit on inventory they cant move.
11-17-2020, 02:49 PM
#100
Burning Brakes
Porsche dealers cannot SELL the cars, no matter if you are a particular or another business. They want to keep as many cars as they can, that way they don't have to pay out those potential new owners. Stop sell is a complete stop sell.
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11-17-2020, 03:15 PM
#103
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There is a lot of "weirdness" in new cars since the mid-00s that trace directly back to software for emissions control.
One example: have you ever tried to rev match down shifts on a late E39 M5 or a C6 'vette? You basically can't do it most of the time unless you've practiced exactly how to 'fool' the system. Most of the time the ECUs will not allow revs to drop for .25 to .5 seconds after the blip as a result of the 'e-gas' system keeping the throttle plate(s) open to keep combustion stoichiometric. The 'blip' to higher revs usually results in just a little bit of excess fuel that must be burned with more air rather than being passed out of the tail pipe (by way of the converter(s).)
In fact, this "need" for precise control of fuel and air for purposes of emissions testing is *the* reason why cables from throttle pedals to throttle plates was eliminated in favor of a potentiometer that told a computer what you wanted and then allowed the computer to decide what it was actually going to do.
Also, why does Sport/Sport+ mode drop engine temperatures? Because the higher operating temperature is better for emissions. Ergo, using Sport/Sport+ mode to keep engine temperature down must have a deleterious effect on emissions.
11-17-2020, 03:24 PM
#104
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So, when you go WOT you're actually spitting out some unburned gas in addition to using more gas because you're WOTing around.
11-17-2020, 03:41 PM
#105
. Most of the time the ECUs will not allow revs to drop for .25 to .5 seconds after the blip as a result of the 'e-gas' system keeping the throttle plate(s) open to keep combustion stoichiometric. The 'blip' to higher revs usually results in just a little bit of excess fuel that must be burned with more air rather than being passed out of the tail pipe (by way of the converter(s).)
New cars should probably require a warning in the owner's manual stating that simply removing your foot from the accelerator will not result in immediate slowing. Just be patient.