Orthojoe's track build journal
02-15-2015, 02:02 PM
#406
Three Wheelin'
As for turn 7, I know I can go flat, but my self preservation/fear instincts keep on kicking in. Give me some more time to get used to the speed. 
02-15-2015, 02:25 PM
#407
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
That sounds correct, though it is just one steering input. Learned it from a guy who raced mustangs and S200s (very different, I know). The 991 just seemed really planted with the trail braking there, and passengers always commented how smooth the transition was from trail braking to turn in to throttle. Totally understood. I'm sure I'll lift too for a while. You're going much faster than I was in the 991S.
02-15-2015, 02:57 PM
#408
Rennlist Member
A few observations, just looking at DATA. I'm nowhere near as fast at this track as you are (need to break 2 yet!), but I also have a few of the same habits that i'm working on :-), this is not a critique, just data observations.
I think a few of these are the 1:57-1:56 times you are chasing:
1. Turn 1. You are coasting into the corner. Braking early. I know speeds are very high here, I do same thing. I'm guessing the car can carry closer to 100mph into turn 1. Brake a little later and get back on the gas to set the car.
2. Turn 3. If I recall this one is slightly off camber but i think you can carry a little more speed here, you are about .1-.2 g off from what you carried in turn 2
3 & 4. Turn 7. You are tentative on your application of throttle here. You get into it then back off then back in. If i recall this corner you can carry quite a bit of speed, east off throttle then gas to set the back end and turn. You may even be able to NOT lift on this corner and just brake at 8.
5. Turn 8. Coasting and tentative application of throttle.
6. Turn 9. You get into the gas, back off, jab it, back in. This is a blind corner and i ***** foot it over here, but you seem to have good confidence and the exit you have plenty of traction left.
7. Turn 10. Coasting. You get on brakes hard but are coasting into the corner. I remember this corner has a lot more traction than you think and is slightly banked.
8. The exist of 11. This is a really fun part of the track and jumping the area of the paint assuming no cones are there is stupid fun. You’re a little late getting to gas, so get to gas, settle the car, then floor it, don’t lift until 14 :-) You can see you have traction, you’re under 1g there.
9 & 10. The 14-15 turn sequence. First, the braking into 14, see the dips, you’re jabbing brake, maybe realizing you braked too early, then coasting, then back on brakes. You can see that in your seeing angle inputs, there isn’t any! You want a peak followed by a sloped release. Most of your other braking graphs are pretty good. You might be able to brake a little later, trail into 14, then constant radius accelerating out of 15. you can see you have plenty of traction here, and you see a dip where it looks like you straighten out a bit and gas it.
I think a few of these are the 1:57-1:56 times you are chasing:
1. Turn 1. You are coasting into the corner. Braking early. I know speeds are very high here, I do same thing. I'm guessing the car can carry closer to 100mph into turn 1. Brake a little later and get back on the gas to set the car.
2. Turn 3. If I recall this one is slightly off camber but i think you can carry a little more speed here, you are about .1-.2 g off from what you carried in turn 2
3 & 4. Turn 7. You are tentative on your application of throttle here. You get into it then back off then back in. If i recall this corner you can carry quite a bit of speed, east off throttle then gas to set the back end and turn. You may even be able to NOT lift on this corner and just brake at 8.
5. Turn 8. Coasting and tentative application of throttle.
6. Turn 9. You get into the gas, back off, jab it, back in. This is a blind corner and i ***** foot it over here, but you seem to have good confidence and the exit you have plenty of traction left.
7. Turn 10. Coasting. You get on brakes hard but are coasting into the corner. I remember this corner has a lot more traction than you think and is slightly banked.
8. The exist of 11. This is a really fun part of the track and jumping the area of the paint assuming no cones are there is stupid fun. You’re a little late getting to gas, so get to gas, settle the car, then floor it, don’t lift until 14 :-) You can see you have traction, you’re under 1g there.
9 & 10. The 14-15 turn sequence. First, the braking into 14, see the dips, you’re jabbing brake, maybe realizing you braked too early, then coasting, then back on brakes. You can see that in your seeing angle inputs, there isn’t any! You want a peak followed by a sloped release. Most of your other braking graphs are pretty good. You might be able to brake a little later, trail into 14, then constant radius accelerating out of 15. you can see you have plenty of traction here, and you see a dip where it looks like you straighten out a bit and gas it.
02-15-2015, 03:07 PM
#409
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
A few observations, just looking at DATA. I'm nowhere near as fast at this track as you are (need to break 2 yet!), but I also have a few of the same habits that i'm working on :-), this is not a critique, just data observations. I think a few of these are the 1:57-1:56 times you are chasing: 1. Turn 1. You are coasting into the corner. Braking early. I know speeds are very high here, I do same thing. I'm guessing the car can carry closer to 100mph into turn 1. Brake a little later and get back on the gas to set the car. 2. Turn 3. If I recall this one is slightly off camber but i think you can carry a little more speed here, you are about .1-.2 g off from what you carried in turn 2 3 & 4. Turn 7. You are tentative on your application of throttle here. You get into it then back off then back in. If i recall this corner you can carry quite a bit of speed, east off throttle then gas to set the back end and turn. You may even be able to NOT lift on this corner and just brake at 8. 5. Turn 8. Coasting and tentative application of throttle. 6. Turn 9. You get into the gas, back off, jab it, back in. This is a blind corner and i ***** foot it over here, but you seem to have good confidence and the exit you have plenty of traction left. 7. Turn 10. Coasting. You get on brakes hard but are coasting into the corner. I remember this corner has a lot more traction than you think and is slightly banked. 8. The exist of 11. This is a really fun part of the track and jumping the area of the paint assuming no cones are there is stupid fun. You’re a little late getting to gas, so get to gas, settle the car, then floor it, don’t lift until 14 :-) You can see you have traction, you’re under 1g there. 9 & 10. The 14-15 turn sequence. First, the braking into 14, see the dips, you’re jabbing brake, maybe realizing you braked too early, then coasting, then back on brakes. You can see that in your seeing angle inputs, there isn’t any! You want a peak followed by a sloped release. Most of your other braking graphs are pretty good. You might be able to brake a little later, trail into 14, then constant radius accelerating out of 15. you can see you have plenty of traction here, and you see a dip where it looks like you straighten out a bit and gas it.
02-15-2015, 03:15 PM
#410
Intermediate
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few questions about PCCB vs. standard brakes (forgive me, I know this has been covered quite a lot already):
I had second generation PCCB on my 997 Turbo. After only one track session they made a terrible whistling sound. Very loud and annoying. Had to switch to after market steel for the rest of my ownership of the car.
Is the third generation PCCB better with regard to noise? Also, has anyone had much experience yet with 3rd generation PCCB in 991 GT3 on track? If so, have you had noise problems afterwards (during normal street use)? And, what is your estimate for the durability of the rotors and pads? How many track days would each last?
Also, does anyone know whether it is possible to upgrade to PCCB later if one buys a 991 GT3 with standard brakes?
Thanks!
I had second generation PCCB on my 997 Turbo. After only one track session they made a terrible whistling sound. Very loud and annoying. Had to switch to after market steel for the rest of my ownership of the car.
Is the third generation PCCB better with regard to noise? Also, has anyone had much experience yet with 3rd generation PCCB in 991 GT3 on track? If so, have you had noise problems afterwards (during normal street use)? And, what is your estimate for the durability of the rotors and pads? How many track days would each last?
Also, does anyone know whether it is possible to upgrade to PCCB later if one buys a 991 GT3 with standard brakes?
Thanks!
02-15-2015, 04:27 PM
#411
Three Wheelin'
I'm not sure I agree that he's losing much time in the above spots. For instance, T3 is off camber, so it'll never be the same Gs as T2. I did forget one thing I noticed in this video and the one from last time. I think you are braking WAY too early before T14. You're braking at the banner and then slowly letting off. You can wait way longer to brake and turn in much later, carrying a lot more speed.
02-15-2015, 07:41 PM
#412
I'm not an expert by any means but my throttle application would be way different to yours. Perhaps your car allows you to do this but I see you're waiting to get on the gas only when you're able to slam down on it. I prefer to more progressive into the throttle which lets me pick up the throttle faster and earlier. This give me more speed through the corner. You seem to be either waiting until you can go full throttle or slowing the car down enough to allow you to do that.
Personally, I try to be careful with entry speeds and progressively build those up because it's much harder to catch a car that loses it on entry vs exit. For me at least. I prefer to drive it home at the end of the day. I'm at 55's now with consistent 56's but to get to 54's and maybe even a 53, it's all in the braking, entry rolling speeds into the corner for me. By far the toughest bits to get right and scariest if you mess up.
Personally, I try to be careful with entry speeds and progressively build those up because it's much harder to catch a car that loses it on entry vs exit. For me at least. I prefer to drive it home at the end of the day. I'm at 55's now with consistent 56's but to get to 54's and maybe even a 53, it's all in the braking, entry rolling speeds into the corner for me. By far the toughest bits to get right and scariest if you mess up.
02-15-2015, 07:54 PM
#413
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
damn, I have to drive my a@@ off to get into 58's
3/26 u will see a LS7 in it.
3/26 u will see a LS7 in it.
02-15-2015, 08:21 PM
#414
Rennlist Member
I'm not an expert by any means but my throttle application would be way different to yours. Perhaps your car allows you to do this but I see you're waiting to get on the gas only when you're able to slam down on it. I prefer to more progressive into the throttle which lets me pick up the throttle faster and earlier. This give me more speed through the corner. You seem to be either waiting until you can go full throttle or slowing the car down enough to allow you to do that.
Personally, I try to be careful with entry speeds and progressively build those up because it's much harder to catch a car that loses it on entry vs exit. For me at least. I prefer to drive it home at the end of the day. I'm at 55's now with consistent 56's but to get to 54's and maybe even a 53, it's all in the braking, entry rolling speeds into the corner for me. By far the toughest bits to get right and scariest if you mess up.
Personally, I try to be careful with entry speeds and progressively build those up because it's much harder to catch a car that loses it on entry vs exit. For me at least. I prefer to drive it home at the end of the day. I'm at 55's now with consistent 56's but to get to 54's and maybe even a 53, it's all in the braking, entry rolling speeds into the corner for me. By far the toughest bits to get right and scariest if you mess up.
Just 0.02c from a fellow drover who didn't even drive a 991 on track yet.
02-15-2015, 08:43 PM
#415
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I'm not an expert by any means but my throttle application would be way different to yours. Perhaps your car allows you to do this but I see you're waiting to get on the gas only when you're able to slam down on it. I prefer to more progressive into the throttle which lets me pick up the throttle faster and earlier. This give me more speed through the corner. You seem to be either waiting until you can go full throttle or slowing the car down enough to allow you to do that. Personally, I try to be careful with entry speeds and progressively build those up because it's much harder to catch a car that loses it on entry vs exit. For me at least. I prefer to drive it home at the end of the day. I'm at 55's now with consistent 56's but to get to 54's and maybe even a 53, it's all in the braking, entry rolling speeds into the corner for me. By far the toughest bits to get right and scariest if you mess up.
02-15-2015, 08:54 PM
#416
Race Director
Forgot to mention:
FWIW, we did the oil change (Thanks MikeinCA for the great DIY) yesterday after 3 track days, 400 track miles, and 2000 total miles. Oil came out very clean! Watch out when you open the plug for the oil tank. It comes out fast and ended up splashing into the right rear wheel well and got all over everything. They made it difficult to get a 8mm hex wrench into the oil pain drain plugs too for some reason. Mike is right, there's no way to get an actually torque wrench in there. We had to use an allen key since the socket and wrench were too long. Switched to mobil 1 5w-50 (porsche approved) oil since the car is in CA and used primarily at the track.
FWIW, we did the oil change (Thanks MikeinCA for the great DIY) yesterday after 3 track days, 400 track miles, and 2000 total miles. Oil came out very clean! Watch out when you open the plug for the oil tank. It comes out fast and ended up splashing into the right rear wheel well and got all over everything. They made it difficult to get a 8mm hex wrench into the oil pain drain plugs too for some reason. Mike is right, there's no way to get an actually torque wrench in there. We had to use an allen key since the socket and wrench were too long. Switched to mobil 1 5w-50 (porsche approved) oil since the car is in CA and used primarily at the track.
moving the pan that kept it from being a really big mess!Enjoyed your Thunderhill vid.
02-15-2015, 09:01 PM
#417
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
A few observations, just looking at DATA. I'm nowhere near as fast at this track as you are (need to break 2 yet!), but I also have a few of the same habits that i'm working on :-), this is not a critique, just data observations. I think a few of these are the 1:57-1:56 times you are chasing: 1. Turn 1. You are coasting into the corner. Braking early. I know speeds are very high here, I do same thing. I'm guessing the car can carry closer to 100mph into turn 1. Brake a little later and get back on the gas to set the car.
2. Turn 3. If I recall this one is slightly off camber but i think you can carry a little more speed here, you are about .1-.2 g off from what you carried in turn 2 3 & 4.
Turn 7. You are tentative on your application of throttle here. You get into it then back off then back in. If i recall this corner you can carry quite a bit of speed, east off throttle then gas to set the back end and turn. You may even be able to NOT lift on this corner and just brake at 8.
5. Turn 8. Coasting and tentative application of throttle.
6. Turn 9. You get into the gas, back off, jab it, back in. This is a blind corner and i ***** foot it over here, but you seem to have good confidence and the exit you have plenty of traction left.
7. Turn 10. Coasting. You get on brakes hard but are coasting into the corner. I remember this corner has a lot more traction than you think and is slightly banked.
8. The exist of 11. This is a really fun part of the track and jumping the area of the paint assuming no cones are there is stupid fun. You’re a little late getting to gas, so get to gas, settle the car, then floor it, don’t lift until 14 :-) You can see you have traction, you’re under 1g there.
9 & 10. The 14-15 turn sequence. First, the braking into 14, see the dips, you’re jabbing brake, maybe realizing you braked too early, then coasting, then back on brakes. You can see that in your seeing angle inputs, there isn’t any! You want a peak followed by a sloped release. Most of your other braking graphs are pretty good. You might be able to brake a little later, trail into 14, then constant radius accelerating out of 15. you can see you have plenty of traction here, and you see a dip where it looks like you straighten out a bit and gas it.
Thanks again!
02-15-2015, 09:04 PM
#418
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I'm not sure I agree that he's losing much time in the above spots. For instance, T3 is off camber, so it'll never be the same Gs as T2. I did forget one thing I noticed in this video and the one from last time. I think you are braking WAY too early before T14. You're braking at the banner and then slowly letting off. You can wait way longer to brake and turn in much later, carrying a lot more speed.
You're correct with 14 as well.
It's good to know that my personal critiques mirror most of what you guys are saying.
Appreciate all of the input!
02-15-2015, 09:12 PM
#419
Rennlist Member
Trust me, I have ALL these issues at TH :-) !!!!! will get to work on them end of march, my 2nd time there. I'd LOVE to see a 1:58 in my current car, but we'll see. And I agree with you guys on turn 3, i forgot but it is quite a bit off camber.
That said, i find the data analysis side of this fun, once you know what you're looking at, combined with the video, it's REALLY easy to see bad habits, and I have a "LOT" of them. A couple other guys i track with down here are data nerds and we have a fun time critiquing each others sessions. Makes for good bench racing.
That said, i find the data analysis side of this fun, once you know what you're looking at, combined with the video, it's REALLY easy to see bad habits, and I have a "LOT" of them. A couple other guys i track with down here are data nerds and we have a fun time critiquing each others sessions. Makes for good bench racing.
02-15-2015, 10:06 PM
#420
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Black Sheep Racing World HQ
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
14 Posts
I find the data analysis side of this fun, once you know what you're looking at, combined with the video, it's REALLY easy to see bad habits, and I have a "LOT" of them. A couple other guys i track with down here are data nerds and we have a fun time critiquing each others sessions. Makes for good bench racing.
I miss the good old days when several of my pals had the same DA system. We exchanged files frequently and I learned a LOT. Now that I'm racing and using a MoTeC system, I feel like an island no one can reach.
Chris, your analysis for Joe was brilliant! Can I send you my files and get the same? I'll pay you!