sqweak

Cute screenname. Would you like to live up to it and disown your work above? :P

As Mike has already pointed out, robots don't screw on parts. AFAIK, the automated assembly is unchanged from 997. Robots assist/weld during body shell assembly, place the windshield, and I believe are involved in the paint process but little else once assembly begins. The automation involved is the delivery of parts to stations "just in time", and the moving of the line at constant speed to humans that do the assembly.

Alan Smithee

If you and Mike are hung up on the robot comment, you are missing my point. Whatever.

mqandil

Well said Mike. Why take advantage of a situation unless you are in need. I own my own manufacturing business, and my loyal customers always stand by me when a bad situation comes up, such as sudden failures, or design issues or just warranty claims, and I always appreciated that, but of course there is nothing I would not do to keep these customers happy. But in general I always like to treat others the same way my customers treat me, and stand by me during bad times and don't try to take advantage of me. Just like you said it's just karma, and I am a firm believer bad deeds, will always come back to haunt you. Anyway really liked your response and admired your high ethics. God bless you. Mark

0Q991

^^+1

911rox

@Macca

Please don't think I'm looking to fuel any fires. Let me first explain the purpose behind my question. To date, like everybody else I was under the impression that this was a leaky pipe issue. Today, I've woken up to letters referencing the crankshaft as a reason for the damage to these cars and the recall. Thus why I've raised the point... Nothing more.

As Mooty has explained, whilst our frustration with Porsche may at times come across the wrong way in posts, we are by no means gleeful to see the new car in this predicament. I have grown a passion for tracking cars and for the Porsche brand. No car lasts forever and naturally I want the track cars coming out of the factory solid because I WILL NEED TO UPDATE at some point and naturally I'd like to be confident with my purchases as I update.

In recent years there has really only been one option for arrive and drive days where you could beat on a car like it was a race car... whilst not perfect, the GT range was it... I'm not interested in the complexity and headaches associated with trailering race cars to tracks, just too hard. The realisation that arrive and drive track days with confidence may be a thing of the past as a result of the direction that VW and Porsche are steering the ship has me concerned... To be honest, my confidence in Porsche was somewhat compromised with their introduction of unproven CL technology and their poor handling of the issues that arose. This situation now has me more conflicted than ever because whilst I love the product, I just don't know that I trust them to do the right thing by me any longer in buying their product.

As you rightly pointed out on the 997 board last night, there are no winners in this as it affects the brand as a whole and the future of this product line. It's a sad state of affairs for all...

sqweak

I think Mike did plenty to respond to your point.

Quality control and engineering defects can and do happen to all payers and all fields. As has already been covered, it isn't the first time it's happened to Porsche and it won't be the last. It's not a conspiracy of some VW bean counters, it's just the reality of building complex systems.

Macca

Never been any doubt in my mind. Mikes a top bloke and a quality human being!

mqandil

I too find this very odd. Not it is not completely possible the cause has to do with some issue with crankcase or engine bottom end, but why release incomplete information. It is unlike Porsche to release information about an issue that is still under review. It is also unusual for engineers to share their partial findings with anyone when themselves are not sure of the cause and still investigating the failure. Just seems odd since I am a professional engineer, and I would never release my findings about a failure when I am not sure of the cause or possible remedies and especially when my report can impact safety and potential loss of life. This could easily cost me my professional engineering license, and possibly make me liable. I understand the engineer's personality too well, and I find it odd they would share the information shown in the letter. Of course anything is possible, but really odd to come from Porsche and their engineers. I suppose It is possible some one in customer service or sales issued such a letter but I would think management Would have their asses handed to them. I am sure we will find out real soon if this letter is real.

snabbgt3

... would be sure to verify identity of the flatbed truck company, by calling porsche dealer's tel#, speak to your porsche sales rep directly to confirm that the GT3 is due for return that day, in case you don't get original message for pick-up by direct conversation from your dealer ... with the GT3 recall in the national/global news media would not be surprised if thefts by flatbed truck will occur ... then verify identity at pick-up from your driveway/garage ... perhaps check invoice/purchase order for pick-up. Be cautious.

Macca

Hey Chris, I can see what led to you thinking about that post back in September 013 about the expired 991 GT3 engines in pre production prototypes.

I started thinking about it too. The letter my dealer received makes reference (as do letters others have seen and posted) to damaged crank cases -

"In Europe, two vehicles were found to have engine damage - the crankcase was significantly damaged. Leaking engine oil ignited on the hot engine components, causing the vehicles to catch fire".

Unfortunately it doesnt give us much of a clue as to the culprit other than it was internal and significant. If could have been a bearing journal on the big end, a rod failure, a fuelling/ecu ignition issue a fault with the crankshaft or even the sensors. The fact a rod went through the case is apparent. That this led to a fire is logical (very tightly packed engine with hot Cat Converters under the engine etc).

However we know nothing about whether this was the fault of a $40 bearing, a bad batch of rods (metallurgy), or even an error on behalf of the engine builder.

One thing seems odd. This just happened on a newly built and delivered 991 GT3. Well actually that is an assumption also - we were told the Italian car was new and had 60km on it, and Porsche have indicated in a communication earlier in the week that the cars in question were newly delivered but we have no direct evidence.

The end result is the crankcase has a hole, the oil exited and as a combustible fluid it caught fire on the hot engine ancillaries. The only other evidence we can garner is the statement in the first press release in Switzerland right back around the 09th which suggested that the driver herd a loud noise from the engine area before pulling over. That sounds like a con rod through a crank case to me!

If the Swiss and Italian drivers had only just a few days before received their cars (lets assume 01 Feb) then based again on supposition (and my own experience from production completion to factory delivery) those would likely be week 2 cars. Possibly week 1.

That's about as far as I got on the subject. I spoke to the chief mechanic at our largest NZ dealership yesterday, he looks after the one and only 991 GT3 that has been officially imported to NZ (and which was returned under its own steam by uits owner today - its a week 46 build with a couple of track days on it and maybe 1000+km - has been faultless). I asked him what could cause detonation to the level that could hole a crankcase and he gave me a list of 6 alternatives, stating there were probably a further 10 variable for each!

Fact is we dont know. I dont know. PAG probably doesnt know (yet - but Im sure they have a few ideas). Is it endemic design flaw? Probably not. Is it a component falure. Almost certainly. Has it been there from the first day - unlikely but possible. Heck it could even be the ECU/ignition system! Back in the days of 993 fires the issue was traced to a engine wiring harness where the nylon sheathing had been damaged and an injector wire had sorted - they replaced every 993 wiring harness on the planet as a result (6 hours labour, $1500 harness!). Thats 70,000 of them!

The thing I was wanting to say is this. Fine you have a 997.2 GT3, very nice. Bit "new school" for my tastes (LOL!) but we are all fish from the same pool. We are all Porsche guys. Ive been buying the brand 15 years and some on here much longer. In my mind this is a Porsche issue and a GT3 one nit just a 991 GT3 one. Its a shame its happened, but I dont believe creating hysteria here or elsewhere does anything for the brand that fuels our passion. Theres a few trolls out there, a few sissys, a few hard core guys, a few worry warts, a few with a big axe to grind and even some who have obviously blowed their last penny into ordering this car - but we are all in this together one way or another. For me, personally, this was always a great experiment as I stated from the beginning - I went cold on water cooled 10+ years ago after my 996.1 GT3 (thought Porsches cars had turned ugly, there build quality gone to sh*t and they had generally lost there way). Sure the Gt3 was a great motor but the rest of it wasnt up to the 993RS and 964RS "organic" experience in my opinion. Ordering the 991 GT3 was about turning my blinkers off and seeing what you guys have all been up to whilst Ive been playing with my 993 (targa and track prepared these days). Must say its been a really eventful ride! Hasnt been a dull moment. Have had every dollar worth out of it from an entertainment point of view - from production delays and rumoured causes to Europe trips and windy Alpine passes, N85, D2 and some glorious drives, through to sending it on a 6 week boat trip and new lows with recalls and such like. If I keep it Ill have some bloody fun stories to tell the kids, if I dont then Ill probably buy my old 993RS back with the PAG refund cheque!

Have a great weekend mate. Its warm and dry here, a balmy 30C today with light trade winds, hammock is calling but a swim in the Pacific is first, too much time on this little interweb box...

Macca

Please note. This letter was not meant for customer digestion. It was a letter from PAG to dealers only. They dont give us this stuff or we write pages on the interweb like we are doing now! I did post a copy earlier but have now removed it although essentially its identical to the first 2/3rds of the one previously posted earlier today...

Mike in CA

Ok, Macca, that explains why I couldn't find it. Thought I was losing my touch. Enjoy your swim!

0Q991

@Macca -- Agreed. Who knows at this point! We do know that the engine and crankcase were badly damaged. No one really knows why, definitively, as of yet.

But, ironically--we do know that there were 4 campaigns prior to the stop sale, correct? The thermostat, the sensors, the bolts / bracket, and software patch (for what, we also don't know). Each was for a very small number of cars. Could a car that had all 4 issues result in some catastrophic issue that resulted in an engine / crankcase issue that could lead to a fire? Maybe?

Eh. It's Friday night--long week over. Time for a beer and an end to the endless speculation.

mqandil

This makes more sense. I was under the impression that was sent to customers which really surprised me. Thanks for the clarification.

Macca

There is no campaign for the cam sensors yet. Only thermo for
Early cars and bolt and bracket for latter ones . Software wasn't a campaign was for some cars RWS. Funny but my car has needed none if these other than thermo check and replacemnt to be sure