Stop Sale?
03-16-2014, 02:17 PM
#2431
Race Director
There seem to be some very short memories on here regarding the way Porsche appear to have treated problems on their cars over the last decade right across the range. From issues big down to small its very much been a case of ignoring design issues and leaving to warranty (or hopefully owners) to fix. Its a simple cost v risk strategy for them in every case. The move towards profit above all else has been gathering pace for a while.
There were engines on the 991 GT3 failed during testing and apparently also during reviews (from rod issues), a simple search should show the heads of those saying as much being bitten off.
IF this is a rod problem and engines are about to be swapped, then its probable that a dice was rolled initially on this but didnt work out quite like they hoped. Failures on the road and with so few miles are harder to brush off than track use failures where owners can be thrown under the bus. Fire also grabs headlines shining a light in a way that a simple blown engine does not
Theres a strong whiff that the issue that is trying to be identified was known all along. If so perhaps this explains the stop sale. There potentially serious risks there if someone is toasted from a decision taken simply on risk strategy.
It sucks massively for all concerned here. I have no dog in this fight, the 991 GT3 does not interest me and I dont own a Porsche road car.
There were engines on the 991 GT3 failed during testing and apparently also during reviews (from rod issues), a simple search should show the heads of those saying as much being bitten off.
IF this is a rod problem and engines are about to be swapped, then its probable that a dice was rolled initially on this but didnt work out quite like they hoped. Failures on the road and with so few miles are harder to brush off than track use failures where owners can be thrown under the bus. Fire also grabs headlines shining a light in a way that a simple blown engine does not
Theres a strong whiff that the issue that is trying to be identified was known all along. If so perhaps this explains the stop sale. There potentially serious risks there if someone is toasted from a decision taken simply on risk strategy.
It sucks massively for all concerned here. I have no dog in this fight, the 991 GT3 does not interest me and I dont own a Porsche road car.
03-16-2014, 02:21 PM
#2432
Race Director
The design/supplier issue are indeed two completely separate issues. Often initial testing is done with parts that are not built by the production supplier. Instead the final design specs for a part are then given to several suppliers to bid. This is where it can fall apart with the dreaded low bidder. I'm not saying this is the case here, but very likely.
03-16-2014, 02:23 PM
#2433
Race Director
03-16-2014, 02:44 PM
#2434
Rennlist Member
This will help pass a little time:
The Greatest Show On Earth【HD】320kph / 200mph Street Race ★ 'ISLE of MAN' TT ★ on Vimeo
The Greatest Show On Earth【HD】320kph / 200mph Street Race ★ 'ISLE of MAN' TT ★ on Vimeo
03-16-2014, 03:12 PM
#2435
Race Director
For some reason I find this update satisfying, although it's just an internet post.
With that said, I have a few questions:
1. Why is PAG replacing the longblock? Why not the short block? More importantly, why not just update each car's present rotating assembly by replacing the problematic rod bolts? It seems inefficient to replace an entire engine simply for rod bolts.
2. What is included in this "compensation package"?
3. Do you mean the Cup and RSR programs are currently testing the 9A1 block?
Thanks for the update, TomTom!
With that said, I have a few questions:
1. Why is PAG replacing the longblock? Why not the short block? More importantly, why not just update each car's present rotating assembly by replacing the problematic rod bolts? It seems inefficient to replace an entire engine simply for rod bolts.
2. What is included in this "compensation package"?
3. Do you mean the Cup and RSR programs are currently testing the 9A1 block?
Thanks for the update, TomTom!
2. I expect we'll find that out soon, if not tomorrow.
3. Good question.
03-16-2014, 03:21 PM
#2436
Track Day
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Lawsuits and the such
I have a bit of experience in this regard...
For our European friend who took a snipe at his brothers across the pond it may be cultural differences or may not but whether it's two owners who nearly got toasted or 102 it frankly doesn't matter when deciding whether to sue or not (this isn't a class action). A single injured or aggrieved party who is not fairly compensated for the injury has a right to seek redress in an American court. The important question isn't how many people were injured but the extent of injury suffered by the one or two parties that were in fact injured. If however, Porsche pays back every penny that the owner has invested in his or her Gt3, and no other injury has been suffered, then there would be no reason to sue in the first place.
For those who want to cancel the transaction I believe Porsche has no choice but to return the entire investment to those who have purchased the car but now want out. I think it's been well stated already that most Lemon Law statutes will have been triggered by the length of time that the car is or will be out of commission.
The problem is that this car isn't a Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series or for that matter an ordinary 991 911. It isn't so easy to find an appropriate swap. I have or currently own a 458, R8GT, R8 V10 Stasis Challenge Extreme, Ferrari California, ZR1 and a GTR and none are or were comparable. Some suggest the Speciale...while I haven't driven that I have driven my share of Scuds and I don't agree that the raw version of a 458 is the equivalent to the raw version of a 911. Maybe that analogy held true in model years past but not necessarily so easy to compare to the 991 GT3. So I for one have no intention of opting out. I will wait, I will drive it and if I should have any issues that need sorting out I will insist that Porsche fix it, fix it right and make me whole. Whatever whole happens to be in my world. Happy motoring to all and in the unlikely event that something serious happens to even one of my fallow Rennlisters over this unfortunate mess feel free to give me a call.
Dean
For our European friend who took a snipe at his brothers across the pond it may be cultural differences or may not but whether it's two owners who nearly got toasted or 102 it frankly doesn't matter when deciding whether to sue or not (this isn't a class action). A single injured or aggrieved party who is not fairly compensated for the injury has a right to seek redress in an American court. The important question isn't how many people were injured but the extent of injury suffered by the one or two parties that were in fact injured. If however, Porsche pays back every penny that the owner has invested in his or her Gt3, and no other injury has been suffered, then there would be no reason to sue in the first place.
For those who want to cancel the transaction I believe Porsche has no choice but to return the entire investment to those who have purchased the car but now want out. I think it's been well stated already that most Lemon Law statutes will have been triggered by the length of time that the car is or will be out of commission.
The problem is that this car isn't a Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series or for that matter an ordinary 991 911. It isn't so easy to find an appropriate swap. I have or currently own a 458, R8GT, R8 V10 Stasis Challenge Extreme, Ferrari California, ZR1 and a GTR and none are or were comparable. Some suggest the Speciale...while I haven't driven that I have driven my share of Scuds and I don't agree that the raw version of a 458 is the equivalent to the raw version of a 911. Maybe that analogy held true in model years past but not necessarily so easy to compare to the 991 GT3. So I for one have no intention of opting out. I will wait, I will drive it and if I should have any issues that need sorting out I will insist that Porsche fix it, fix it right and make me whole. Whatever whole happens to be in my world. Happy motoring to all and in the unlikely event that something serious happens to even one of my fallow Rennlisters over this unfortunate mess feel free to give me a call.
Dean
Last edited by myphillylawyer; 03-16-2014 at 03:24 PM. Reason: typos
03-16-2014, 03:25 PM
#2437
Like others thoughts and input on this:
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.
03-16-2014, 03:26 PM
#2438
Race Director
First, I appreciate you posting the feedback from your friend. Beyond that, respectfully, can you or anyone else produce even one documented fact that supports your theory? I'm friends with a member of AP's inside team, one of those guys who has been working every day since this whole thing began to track down the problem. (Why work so hard to find a problem that's already "known" or "suspected?). He has not been able to share any specifics with me, but I know the kind of guy he is, how hard he works, and the passion he and others on the team have for the car. Not to put too fine a point on it, but what is being said about these issues showing up in testing and being swept under the rug is complete and utter BS.
03-16-2014, 03:32 PM
#2439
I have a bit of experience in this regard... For our European friend who took a snipe at his brothers across the pond it may be cultural differences or may not but whether it's two owners who nearly got toasted or 102 it frankly doesn't matter when deciding whether to sue or not (this isn't a class action). A single injured or aggrieved party who is not fairly compensated for the injury has a right to seek redress in an American court. The important question isn't how many people were injured but the extent of injury suffered by the one or two parties that were in fact injured. If however, Porsche pays back every penny that the owner has invested in his or her Gt3, and no other injury has been suffered, then there would be no reason to sue in the first place. For those who want to cancel the transaction I believe Porsche has no choice but to return the entire investment to those who have purchased the car but now want out. I think it's been well stated already that most Lemon Law statutes will have been triggered by the length of time that the car is or will be out of commission. The problem is that this car isn't a Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series or for that matter an ordinary 991 911. It isn't so easy to find an appropriate swap. I have or currently own a 458, R8GT, R8 V10 Stasis Challenge Extreme, Ferrari California, ZR1 and a GTR and none are or were comparable. Some suggest the Speciale...while I haven't driven that I have driven my share of Scuds and I don't agree that the raw version of a 458 is the equivalent to the raw version of a 911. Maybe that analogy held true in model years past but not necessarily so easy to compare to the 991 GT3. So I for one have no intention of opting out. I will wait, I will drive it and if I should have any issues that need sorting out I will insist that Porsche fix it, fix it right and make me whole. Whatever whole happens to be in my world. Happy motoring to all and in the unlikely event that something serious happens to even one of my fallow Rennlisters over this unfortunate mess feel free to give me a call. Dean
03-16-2014, 03:51 PM
#2441
Intermediate
Join Date: Nov 2013
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First, I appreciate you posting the feedback from your friend. Beyond that, respectfully, can you produce even one documented fact that supports your theory? I'm friends with a member of AP's inside team, one of those guys who has been working every day since this whole thing began to track down the problem. (Why work so hard to find a problem that's already "known" or "suspected?). He has not been able to share any specifics with me, but I know the kind of guy he is, how hard he works, and the passion he and others on the team have for the car. Not to put too fine a point on it, but what is being said about these issues showing up in testing and being swept under the rug is complete and utter BS.
Anyhow, he told me how hard they worked on the problem (and from what I gather, still are) and I trust they'll fix it once and for all.
03-16-2014, 04:01 PM
#2442
Like others thoughts and input on this:
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.
.
03-16-2014, 04:06 PM
#2443
Race Director
Sorry I don't mean to make false accusations, but from what I understood and again just relaying, is that they had an idea of what it could be pretty early on, still testing is needed to confirm and test out solutions. My friend worked as an engineer in the Auto industry for quite some time before taking up this job (mainly not to travel as much) and he said often Automakers wait and see once problems show up (as long as it's not life threatening) but he always said the decision makers (not the engineers!) are no nice guys...
Anyhow, he told me how hard they worked on the problem (and from what I gather, still are) and I trust they'll fix it once and for all.
Anyhow, he told me how hard they worked on the problem (and from what I gather, still are) and I trust they'll fix it once and for all.
Like everyone else, I hope we will eventually get some details of what they found and like you I believe it will be fixed.
03-16-2014, 04:07 PM
#2444
Race Car
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But I agree with the notion that it's difficult to find a suitable replacement for the 991 GT3 despite the fact that I've not driven it, at least on a cost-adjusted basis.
03-16-2014, 04:08 PM
#2445
Burning Brakes
Like others thoughts and input on this:
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.
My car was in production and since February 14th my car has not had anything done to it. It was at the point of the engine being married to the rest of the car.
What is a reasonable ask from Porsche is they say the following:
"Sorry your car will be finished in about 3 months as others are ahead of you (I agree those that have cars today should be taken care of first) and you should get your car at end of August ( I live in Chicago and driving season would be more than half over). My car was due in April.
A) Should they offer me a Porsche to drive before my car comes in?
B) Should I request first allocation of 2015's?
What do you suggest if they just say Sorry, your car will arrive in August and we are not offering anything except you can get your deposit back as you have no damages. Talk to your dealer if they have any 2015 allocations left.
Thanks for your input in advance.