Stop Sale?
03-16-2014, 06:20 AM
#2386
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Don't shoot the messenger!
I'm only relaying what I was told. I don't drink the Porsche Kool Aid either, this is my first Porsche. I'm just saying we'll only have to wait until Monday.
Don't get all excited about the compensation. Reading between the lines he told me a year of warranty extension costs around 2000€ and that would already be quite a compensation ;-) (forget an invite to LeMans, the tickets for the Porsche VIP cost 5k € apiece and this is considered too expensive for the compensation...)
As for the 9a1. He has personally seen a Cup and a RSR shell with the 9a1 engine in it. Even if regulations are not set they are considering the options...
I'm only relaying what I was told. I don't drink the Porsche Kool Aid either, this is my first Porsche. I'm just saying we'll only have to wait until Monday.
Don't get all excited about the compensation. Reading between the lines he told me a year of warranty extension costs around 2000€ and that would already be quite a compensation ;-) (forget an invite to LeMans, the tickets for the Porsche VIP cost 5k € apiece and this is considered too expensive for the compensation...)
As for the 9a1. He has personally seen a Cup and a RSR shell with the 9a1 engine in it. Even if regulations are not set they are considering the options...
03-16-2014, 06:23 AM
#2387
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And yes there were some indications to the fact the issue was known or at least suspected, I guess they just thought wait and see... And then it literally blew up in their face ;-) but honestly that's what all manufacturers do.
He is pretty embarrassed about the whole thing...
He is pretty embarrassed about the whole thing...
03-16-2014, 06:30 AM
#2388
Rennlist Member
Ok so everyone remembered I cornered the highest person of Porsche motorsport at Daytona a few years back and got the whole scoop on the GT3. Well today at 7am I saw him in the garage and had a very enlightening chat. You guys know I've been negative on the new car but after speaking with this exceedingly high up person I am no longer worried about getting the car in the least!
1.The issue with the new engine is not a design issue it is a supply part issue. All will be told Monday. He was quite embarrassed as he said everyone involved is. But he repeatedly said "It wasn't a problem on our end"
2. The new GT3 motor was designed COMPLETELY in house (motorsport) and will 1000000% go into the next cup and possibly the RSR depending on how the new rules play out. I specifically said " You won't like this but people are hesitant to buy this car b/c the motor has not and does appear to be on any timeline". He responded that was I was completely wrong and the new GT3 motor is ABSOLUTELY the basis for the next NA motor for the CUP. He said the issue was developing a new DFI motor which would have been tremendously expensive had the FIA rules been changed. He specifically said I was "stupid" for not getting the car now. Which leads to the next point-the RS.
3. I specifically said turbo. He told me its very possible as it is allowed under the FIA rules and judging worldwide movement towards turbos it certainly will be stressed. He told me they have tested 2 motors. 4.1 liter 580 hp NA and a turbo motor. He obviously wouldn't tell me what the decision would be.
4. The RS will be 200k and loaded with extreme carbon bodywork and bespoke suspension.
1.The issue with the new engine is not a design issue it is a supply part issue. All will be told Monday. He was quite embarrassed as he said everyone involved is. But he repeatedly said "It wasn't a problem on our end"
2. The new GT3 motor was designed COMPLETELY in house (motorsport) and will 1000000% go into the next cup and possibly the RSR depending on how the new rules play out. I specifically said " You won't like this but people are hesitant to buy this car b/c the motor has not and does appear to be on any timeline". He responded that was I was completely wrong and the new GT3 motor is ABSOLUTELY the basis for the next NA motor for the CUP. He said the issue was developing a new DFI motor which would have been tremendously expensive had the FIA rules been changed. He specifically said I was "stupid" for not getting the car now. Which leads to the next point-the RS.
3. I specifically said turbo. He told me its very possible as it is allowed under the FIA rules and judging worldwide movement towards turbos it certainly will be stressed. He told me they have tested 2 motors. 4.1 liter 580 hp NA and a turbo motor. He obviously wouldn't tell me what the decision would be.
4. The RS will be 200k and loaded with extreme carbon bodywork and bespoke suspension.
Pt 1- So they've starting with passing the buck to their suppliers... nice. But they've specced and failed to QC critical components... CLs and coolant fittings failed on track, deny, deny, deny... They throw rods on the street, it's the supplier's fault. Porsche can do no wrong...
Pt 2- The new 991 cup car is what it is for the next 3 years, Mezger powered and that is what teams have paid for and committed to race.... If the gt3 motor was a motorsport designed unit, it would be in the 991 cup and not sidelined for having repeatedly failed testing in their hands. As PeteVB suggested and I had this confirmed months ago, the 9A1 based motor showed major reliability problems in the hands of the motorsport development team. They needed a platform to run with, the new motor was going to take too much time and resources to iron out in time and they proceeded with what they knew worked. Even AP was evasive about it's use in future motorsport cars when asked by Evo upon the road car's launch. On the one hand this guy says it will be in the next cup car yet he then says it would be stupid to spend money developing a DFI motor with new rules pending? He's contradicting himself because now the new motor can't be considered for the carrera Cup program for the next 3 years and by 2015-6, FIA rules will probably make the new unit obsolete too... He's full of **** IMO...
Pt 3- 580hp from a flat 6? Turbo motor would achieve it no problems. Highly doubt it for NA though and highly doubt either in the street car...
Pt 4- So 21" wheels, extensive carbon body and 200k price tag... I'd love to see who can afford to regularly track such a car and sleep at night....
I don't buy it rosenbergendo and it certainly doesn't sway my opinion one little bit. I've said it time and time again, if Porsche want to earn back some credibility, don't blame suppliers- you chose them and provided spec. Just sort out your ****, fix customers' cars to get them going and take one to the NBR OR Lemans 24 and make the same bold statement you made in 2010 to restore confidence... Words pale in comparison to actions
Last edited by 911rox; 03-16-2014 at 07:04 AM.
03-16-2014, 06:48 AM
#2389
Rennlist Member
There seem to be some very short memories on here regarding the way Porsche appear to have treated problems on their cars over the last decade right across the range. From issues big down to small its very much been a case of ignoring design issues and leaving to warranty (or hopefully owners) to fix. Its a simple cost v risk strategy for them in every case. The move towards profit above all else has been gathering pace for a while.
There were engines on the 991 GT3 failed during testing and apparently also during reviews (from rod issues), a simple search should show the heads of those saying as much being bitten off.
IF this is a rod problem and engines are about to be swapped, then its probable that a dice was rolled initially on this but didnt work out quite like they hoped. Failures on the road and with so few miles are harder to brush off than track use failures where owners can be thrown under the bus. Fire also grabs headlines shining a light in a way that a simple blown engine does not
Theres a strong whiff that the issue that is trying to be identified was known all along. If so perhaps this explains the stop sale. There potentially serious risks there if someone is toasted from a decision taken simply on risk strategy.
It sucks massively for all concerned here. I have no dog in this fight, the 991 GT3 does not interest me and I dont own a Porsche road car.
There were engines on the 991 GT3 failed during testing and apparently also during reviews (from rod issues), a simple search should show the heads of those saying as much being bitten off.
IF this is a rod problem and engines are about to be swapped, then its probable that a dice was rolled initially on this but didnt work out quite like they hoped. Failures on the road and with so few miles are harder to brush off than track use failures where owners can be thrown under the bus. Fire also grabs headlines shining a light in a way that a simple blown engine does not
Theres a strong whiff that the issue that is trying to be identified was known all along. If so perhaps this explains the stop sale. There potentially serious risks there if someone is toasted from a decision taken simply on risk strategy.
It sucks massively for all concerned here. I have no dog in this fight, the 991 GT3 does not interest me and I dont own a Porsche road car.
Don't shoot the messenger!
I'm only relaying what I was told. I don't drink the Porsche Kool Aid either, this is my first Porsche. I'm just saying we'll only have to wait until Monday.
Don't get all excited about the compensation. Reading between the lines he told me a year of warranty extension costs around 2000€ and that would already be quite a compensation ;-) (forget an invite to LeMans, the tickets for the Porsche VIP cost 5k € apiece and this is considered too expensive for the compensation...)
As for the 9a1. He has personally seen a Cup and a RSR shell with the 9a1 engine in it. Even if regulations are not set they are considering the options...
I'm only relaying what I was told. I don't drink the Porsche Kool Aid either, this is my first Porsche. I'm just saying we'll only have to wait until Monday.
Don't get all excited about the compensation. Reading between the lines he told me a year of warranty extension costs around 2000€ and that would already be quite a compensation ;-) (forget an invite to LeMans, the tickets for the Porsche VIP cost 5k € apiece and this is considered too expensive for the compensation...)
As for the 9a1. He has personally seen a Cup and a RSR shell with the 9a1 engine in it. Even if regulations are not set they are considering the options...
Regarding the race cars, speaks volumes in light of the fact they won't race it...
And yes there were some indications to the fact the issue was known or at least suspected, I guess they just thought wait and see... And then it literally blew up in their face ;-) but honestly that's what all manufacturers do.
He is pretty embarrassed about the whole thing...
He is pretty embarrassed about the whole thing...
Last edited by 911rox; 03-16-2014 at 07:24 AM.
03-16-2014, 06:57 AM
#2390
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Sure the RS is running with side intakes (in my "theory" that air is directly running through the filter and further to the throttle valve). I'm only saying the RS has a different flow path from intake to engine than the normal GT3. Meaning it uses the air from the sides not from the air scoop.
03-16-2014, 07:24 AM
#2391
160 pages
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
03-16-2014, 07:24 AM
#2392
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Regarding:
Pt 1- So they've starting with passing the buck to their suppliers... nice. But they've specced and failed to QC critical components... CLs and coolant fittings failed on track, deny, deny, deny... They throw rods on the street, it's the supplier's fault. Porsche can do no wrong...
Pt 2- The new 991 cup car is what it is for the next 3 years, Mezger powered and that is what teams have paid for and committed to race.... If the gt3 motor was a motorsport designed unit, it would be in the 991 cup and not sidelined for having repeatedly failed testing in their hands. As PeteVB suggested and I had this confirmed months ago, the 9A1 based motor showed major reliability problems in the hands of the motorsport development team. They needed a platform to run with, the new motor was going to take too much time and resources to iron out and they proceeded with what they knew worked. Even AP was evasive about it's use in future motorsport cars when asked by Evo upon the road car's launch. On the one hand this guy says it will be in the next cup car yet he then says it would be stupid to spend money developing a DFI motor with new rules pending? He's contradicting himself because now the new motor won't can't be considered for the carrera Cup program for the next 3 years and by 2015-6, FIA rules will probably make the new unit obsolete too... He's full of **** IMO...
Pt 3- 580hp from a flat 6? Turbo motor would achieve it no problems. Highly doubt it for NA though and highly doubt either in the street car...
Pt 4- So 21" wheels, extensive carbon body and 200k price tag... I'd love to see who can afford to regularly track such a car and sleep at night....
I don't buy it rosenbergendo and it certainly doesn't sway my opinion one little bit. I've said it time and time again, if Porsche want to earn back some credit, don't blame suppliers- you chose them and provided spec. Just sort out your ****, fix customers' cars to get them going and take one to the NBR OR Lemans 24 and make the same bold statement you made in 2010 to restore confidence... Words pale in comparison to actions
Pt 1- So they've starting with passing the buck to their suppliers... nice. But they've specced and failed to QC critical components... CLs and coolant fittings failed on track, deny, deny, deny... They throw rods on the street, it's the supplier's fault. Porsche can do no wrong...
Pt 2- The new 991 cup car is what it is for the next 3 years, Mezger powered and that is what teams have paid for and committed to race.... If the gt3 motor was a motorsport designed unit, it would be in the 991 cup and not sidelined for having repeatedly failed testing in their hands. As PeteVB suggested and I had this confirmed months ago, the 9A1 based motor showed major reliability problems in the hands of the motorsport development team. They needed a platform to run with, the new motor was going to take too much time and resources to iron out and they proceeded with what they knew worked. Even AP was evasive about it's use in future motorsport cars when asked by Evo upon the road car's launch. On the one hand this guy says it will be in the next cup car yet he then says it would be stupid to spend money developing a DFI motor with new rules pending? He's contradicting himself because now the new motor won't can't be considered for the carrera Cup program for the next 3 years and by 2015-6, FIA rules will probably make the new unit obsolete too... He's full of **** IMO...
Pt 3- 580hp from a flat 6? Turbo motor would achieve it no problems. Highly doubt it for NA though and highly doubt either in the street car...
Pt 4- So 21" wheels, extensive carbon body and 200k price tag... I'd love to see who can afford to regularly track such a car and sleep at night....
I don't buy it rosenbergendo and it certainly doesn't sway my opinion one little bit. I've said it time and time again, if Porsche want to earn back some credit, don't blame suppliers- you chose them and provided spec. Just sort out your ****, fix customers' cars to get them going and take one to the NBR OR Lemans 24 and make the same bold statement you made in 2010 to restore confidence... Words pale in comparison to actions
03-16-2014, 07:58 AM
#2393
I have personally talked to Hans Mezger several times during recent years, last time at the Carrera RS Meeting 2012 in Stuttgart. He knows quite well that nearly every Generation of 911 engines had it's Problems - may it be the 2.7L RS with the weak 7R mag case that seldom exceded >40-50k kms without case renewal or line boring, the 911 3,2L & 993 with very premature wearing, soft valve guides, the 964 with hectically developed and technically not very sophisticated crank design often encountering massive cracks/system failures etc.
So in this subject instance the issues seem to be also substantial - but it's really nothing new in Porsche (or in other high-perfomance manufacturers) history.
So in this subject instance the issues seem to be also substantial - but it's really nothing new in Porsche (or in other high-perfomance manufacturers) history.
03-16-2014, 08:52 AM
#2394
160 pages
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
100%. We live in a world of mutts as far as the car business goes. It's the same suppliers supplying the same parts to different cars.
Look at Aston Martin, they had a recall a few weeks ago that affected every model since 2002 or so bc of a chinese part??!!
Are you kidding me? People are paying a premium just like they are with Porsche.
03-16-2014, 09:04 AM
#2395
Rennlist Member
Great to see that not everyone on RL has their head buried in sand... My feelings exactly and below TomTomGTA hits the nail on the head... they suspected (at the very least) and shipped rubbish for peoples' good money. Bet the story would have played out VERY differently if the fires happened only on track!
All good, we know you're just relaying info. Thanks TomTomGTA...
Regarding the race cars, speaks volumes in light of the fact they won't race it...
This statement alone makes me feel vindicated for my views towards Porsche, the way they treat us customers and why I've been unwavering in my criticism of them and their lack of integrity in standing behind their products. Serves them right!
All good, we know you're just relaying info. Thanks TomTomGTA...
Regarding the race cars, speaks volumes in light of the fact they won't race it...
This statement alone makes me feel vindicated for my views towards Porsche, the way they treat us customers and why I've been unwavering in my criticism of them and their lack of integrity in standing behind their products. Serves them right!
160 pages
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
I wish my customers were like you guys. Pay out $150K, delay 6 months for delivery, then stop sale, then silent treatment, then god knows what. I really feel for you.
I don't understand why nobody has demanded their money back. Porsche marketed this car as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I opted not to buy this car when I had a chance and I'm glad I didn't. And I'll probably pass on the RS too. I guarantee you this problem is not the last to befall the 991 gt3. And frankly all this "embarrassment" doesn't mean anything. Porsche SHOULD be embarrassed.
You hit the nail square on the head my friend. I find it fascinating now that Porsche's (not quite sure if the modern corporation is worthy of the name) chickens have come home to roost in this GT3 everyone wonders how it happened. They are leaking the type of excuses people and big corporations do in this situation (oh, right, it's the bolt suppliers fault... but who tested that bolt?). Truly shameful and embarrassing the problems mentioned above in this halo product. This is not just another car, it's the damn GT3 for Christ's sake! Superficial or merely sloppy track testing? What other conclusion can one come too?. The solution is simple and lies in the ways of Piech, Singer and Mezger (anyone remember those guys and those days?): more time in race development and trial by fire, less BS $$$ to all that advertising lip service to the glory days and the annoying guy that does the voice overs. Best wishes to all of you for a satisfactory conclusion to this fiasco.
Get your money back and wait till these cars are proven on the track, I think the engine and RWS are only the beginning of the problems and won't be solved until they race it for some time.
03-16-2014, 09:17 AM
#2396
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If it does turn out that this is all due to problems that were known to Porsche a while back, but they decided to roll the dice and deal with it via warranty if needed, then yes, shame on Porsche for not making the investment to get the product right at the outset. But I'd like to know the facts, seems that nothing is known for sure yet.
03-16-2014, 09:31 AM
#2397
Rennlist Member
The more concerning roll of the dice is the one they've been cornered into making with the current "fix". Due to PR and legal concerns they only had a month (already expired) to accomplish what may have taken 6 or more months to resolve to acceptable standards of reliability. I hope they are lucky as the future of the whole GT3 program may be hanging on the outcome.
03-16-2014, 09:32 AM
#2398
Rennlist Member
If it does turn out that this is all due to problems that were known to Porsche a while back, but they decided to roll the dice and deal with it via warranty if needed, then yes, shame on Porsche for not making the investment to get the product right at the outset. But I'd like to know the facts, seems that nothing is known for sure yet.
03-16-2014, 10:11 AM
#2399
Rennlist Member
Mmmm Chris. I feel the venom you have for Porsche in your posts. It seems your CL experience had left deep scars. Im surprised you still own Porsche frankly. I've had the replacement faulty wiring loom in my 993 & 993 RS and the splitting header tank and split coolant hose joint in my 996 Gt3 and now a replacement engine in my new GT3. Maybe I should joint the naysayers. Have say was getting tempted until my car arrived in NZ on Thursday. Such a gorgeous thing in the flesh it is to . Awaiting compliance I started her up and once warmed over gave it a nice climb up the revs. Any thoughts of a full refund ( which incidentally is available to anyone who presses the matter so I have been told) immediately evaporated as mechanics at the compliance centre downed their tools to stand around the car and gap as the revs made a lovely crescendo....
Then I remembered. It's just a damned car and probably a dozen items down in the que of my life's priorities, it has a warranty so who cares....
By the way I fully intend to drive it once it's road legal. They are replacing the engine anyway right.
I guess we see shortly if what I was told about all engines being replaced is correct.
Ps what's all this long block vs short block BS? They are replacing the entire engine. Last time I checked a whole engine included both long and short block.....reason is simplicity, speed and control if quality
Then I remembered. It's just a damned car and probably a dozen items down in the que of my life's priorities, it has a warranty so who cares....
By the way I fully intend to drive it once it's road legal. They are replacing the engine anyway right.
I guess we see shortly if what I was told about all engines being replaced is correct.
Ps what's all this long block vs short block BS? They are replacing the entire engine. Last time I checked a whole engine included both long and short block.....reason is simplicity, speed and control if quality
