Great AMERICAN 964s for sale
#6901
Looks like lots of orange peel in the paint.
#6902
Rennlist Member
I agree. I suspect it had been either left out in the sun for too long or had clear issues and the top side of the car had been given a fresh coat of clear. Just speculating but no way the numbers are factory and although I have seen varying degrees of orange peel on these it just doesn't look factory to my eye either. Still a Nice example and something that can probably be corrected.
#6903
Even though I have picked at some of the details of this car it is likely the nicest WTL out there. Part of me is thinking about throwing my hat in the ring for this one but I suspect it may go close to $200k which is hard to stomach. I looked for a while for mine and all 5 that I found had paint work to some extent and none were anywhere near as low miles as this one. Maybe at this point almost 30 years out some paintwork is almost unavoidable.
Most of the Midnight Blue WTLs seem to have the grey interiors and I wasn't keen on it when I was looking mostly because they usually had grey carpeting that seems to turn purplish as it ages. The contrasting dark blue carpeting makes the grey leather interior on this car much more appealing in my opinion. I also like the crests in the headrests an option you don't see much especially on non turbo cars. This car has the potential to bring a ton of $ given that a GP white WTL with 30k miles and a slate grey WTL with 60k miles and the repainted jubilee with 40k miles all sold in the ~$150k ranger earlier this year. Will be interesting to see where this lands and I need to keep myself away from the keyboard 7 days from now.
If I were the seller I would post photos of the VIN stickers on each panel and as well as proper underbody photos and door jam photos to try to rebuild some of the confidence that may have been lost by all the paintwork discussion.
Most of the Midnight Blue WTLs seem to have the grey interiors and I wasn't keen on it when I was looking mostly because they usually had grey carpeting that seems to turn purplish as it ages. The contrasting dark blue carpeting makes the grey leather interior on this car much more appealing in my opinion. I also like the crests in the headrests an option you don't see much especially on non turbo cars. This car has the potential to bring a ton of $ given that a GP white WTL with 30k miles and a slate grey WTL with 60k miles and the repainted jubilee with 40k miles all sold in the ~$150k ranger earlier this year. Will be interesting to see where this lands and I need to keep myself away from the keyboard 7 days from now.
If I were the seller I would post photos of the VIN stickers on each panel and as well as proper underbody photos and door jam photos to try to rebuild some of the confidence that may have been lost by all the paintwork discussion.
#6904
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It's worth re-posting here Nathan Merz's (Appraisal/Evaluation Chair, PCA Technical Committee) comments on the BaT WTL:
Full disclosure, I am familiar with both owners, the original owner as well as the current owner and both are solid, honest, true Porsche faithful. I have also personally inspected this car. The original owner is adamant it was never painted in his care (1993-2017) and I know it hasn’t been while in the current owners care. With that said, I have no horse in this race, just figured I would share my knowledge and expertise on this.
I knew the paint meter readings on this car would cause a lot of consternation. Folks are generally correct that in an ideal world a 964 with original paint should meter in the range of ~3.5-7mils. Generally the lowest readings will be bottoms of doors, sunroof, fuel door, jams which might read as low as 3-4 mils. Upper doors, front fenders, hood, roof, rear deck will usually be 4.5-6 mils and rear quarters are usually the highest and the most likely spot you might see 6 to the occasional 7.5-8 mils. In these instances most people will accept that the readings verify original paint BUT there are exceptions…. (I know people hate exceptions as they think a tool should provide 100% evidence, it just doesn’t, its a great tool but has its limits). These would be:
-These cars were painted by hand (meaning a real human being painted these cars) so they WILL have more variation than a modern robotically painted car)
-Quality Control (QC) - Since these were painted by hand and Porsche has a very stringent QC process, what do people think Porsche did when they found a dry spot, run, dirt, contamination, poor metallic distribution, etc in the paint? Do people think they threw the car away?? Of course not, they noted the issue, scuffed the area down and sent the car back thru paint to have that area remedied. Logic would tell you this was the case. In this case a car might meter high but would have none of the tell tales of aftermarket paint as it was painted prior to full assembly (such as overspray, back masking lines, hard edges, texture mismatch, etc)
-Port/Shipping Damage- Like above the cars oftentimes would suffer a scratch, damage, etc during transport, Porsche maintained a repair facility at the port that would remedy these items prior to shipping to the dealer. This also happened at the dealer level. Whether someone considers a repair prior to original delivery as “original” is up to debate, I could see a view either way. In this scenario the work was usually done to a very high standard but a few of the classic “tells” are often evident.
-Replaced Panels- Now paint meters can cut both ways. I know several cars that “meter” as original that I know for a fact aren’t. For example if you replace a hood and your painter is fairly skilled and doesn’t lay on a lot of paint, they can also get a number in the 4-5mils range, someone who doesn’t know that the paint meter is just ONE of a couple tools in an experts arsenal could be fooled. What are the other tools? EXPERIENCE; those of us in the business prior to the widespread use of paint meters know this. They are: evidence of panel removal/replacement, paint texture/color match, panel fitment, back masking/hard edges/rough edges, body tags, etc. The best analogy I use is that you can get a slew of medical tests but a smart person also wants to have their Dr perform a full physical exam. That expert/Dr. can then combine the lab tests along with their years of clinical experience to diagnose.
-My experience having worked at a Porsche dealer when 964’s were new, having been a Porsche nut for 30 years, having bought/sold/inspected/owned literally 100’s of 964’s, as well as having done a full 2-year auto body/paint training program (just because I was interested) is that for whatever reason Porsche’s of this era 1990-1994 have the widest range of paint meter values even on cars that IMO I would judge as original paint.
Everyone can form their own opinion, for some this will just cause too much debate and it will rule them out. For some they can accept that one of the above scenarios is likely, the key is the buyer just has to decide where they sit on that issue. I hope that helps!
I knew the paint meter readings on this car would cause a lot of consternation. Folks are generally correct that in an ideal world a 964 with original paint should meter in the range of ~3.5-7mils. Generally the lowest readings will be bottoms of doors, sunroof, fuel door, jams which might read as low as 3-4 mils. Upper doors, front fenders, hood, roof, rear deck will usually be 4.5-6 mils and rear quarters are usually the highest and the most likely spot you might see 6 to the occasional 7.5-8 mils. In these instances most people will accept that the readings verify original paint BUT there are exceptions…. (I know people hate exceptions as they think a tool should provide 100% evidence, it just doesn’t, its a great tool but has its limits). These would be:
-These cars were painted by hand (meaning a real human being painted these cars) so they WILL have more variation than a modern robotically painted car)
-Quality Control (QC) - Since these were painted by hand and Porsche has a very stringent QC process, what do people think Porsche did when they found a dry spot, run, dirt, contamination, poor metallic distribution, etc in the paint? Do people think they threw the car away?? Of course not, they noted the issue, scuffed the area down and sent the car back thru paint to have that area remedied. Logic would tell you this was the case. In this case a car might meter high but would have none of the tell tales of aftermarket paint as it was painted prior to full assembly (such as overspray, back masking lines, hard edges, texture mismatch, etc)
-Port/Shipping Damage- Like above the cars oftentimes would suffer a scratch, damage, etc during transport, Porsche maintained a repair facility at the port that would remedy these items prior to shipping to the dealer. This also happened at the dealer level. Whether someone considers a repair prior to original delivery as “original” is up to debate, I could see a view either way. In this scenario the work was usually done to a very high standard but a few of the classic “tells” are often evident.
-Replaced Panels- Now paint meters can cut both ways. I know several cars that “meter” as original that I know for a fact aren’t. For example if you replace a hood and your painter is fairly skilled and doesn’t lay on a lot of paint, they can also get a number in the 4-5mils range, someone who doesn’t know that the paint meter is just ONE of a couple tools in an experts arsenal could be fooled. What are the other tools? EXPERIENCE; those of us in the business prior to the widespread use of paint meters know this. They are: evidence of panel removal/replacement, paint texture/color match, panel fitment, back masking/hard edges/rough edges, body tags, etc. The best analogy I use is that you can get a slew of medical tests but a smart person also wants to have their Dr perform a full physical exam. That expert/Dr. can then combine the lab tests along with their years of clinical experience to diagnose.
-My experience having worked at a Porsche dealer when 964’s were new, having been a Porsche nut for 30 years, having bought/sold/inspected/owned literally 100’s of 964’s, as well as having done a full 2-year auto body/paint training program (just because I was interested) is that for whatever reason Porsche’s of this era 1990-1994 have the widest range of paint meter values even on cars that IMO I would judge as original paint.
Everyone can form their own opinion, for some this will just cause too much debate and it will rule them out. For some they can accept that one of the above scenarios is likely, the key is the buyer just has to decide where they sit on that issue. I hope that helps!
#6905
Rennlist Member
I have said stranger things have happened and it sounds as though this car is an anomaly. I agree with all of Nathan's comments and if he has looked it over and feels it is factory I see no reason not to believe him. I have seen some interesting things over the years that has me scratching my head from time to time. Seems this is another one for the record books.
Good to know and nice to have a reliable source share his observations. It has me wondering what record this WTL will set, I doubt we will see another like it.
Good to know and nice to have a reliable source share his observations. It has me wondering what record this WTL will set, I doubt we will see another like it.
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9SIX4-C4 (02-03-2021)
#6907
Rennlist Member
Another 9m car. 3.8L backdate. Like this a lot. Classy color combo.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...11-carrera-44/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...11-carrera-44/
Last edited by GBX; 02-05-2021 at 02:02 PM.
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911Jetta (02-05-2021)
#6908
Rennlist Member
Beautiful. The want is high!
Love the re-location of the switches above the ignition.
Love the re-location of the switches above the ignition.
Last edited by 911Jetta; 02-05-2021 at 01:46 PM.
#6909
Three Wheelin'
Another 9m car. 3.8L backdate. Like this a lot. Classy color combo.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...11-carrera-44/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...11-carrera-44/
#6910
Rennlist Member
I may need to dig up an old carpeting or 9m thread to ask more appropriately, but while we're here discussing this car, does anyone know what floor padding 9m is using here? Not the dynamat, but the grey foam looking material that appears to be form fitted to the rear seat area. I seriously doubt it was preserved from the original insulation. Can you buy that piece from Porsche? Is it aftermarket? I've gotta find out what it is (and what it weighs) before I install my new carpet.
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BLACK3.2 (02-05-2021)
#6912
Rennlist Member
Indeed. It appears to be the perfect solution to the wrinkled aftermarket carpet installs that plague the vast majority of all air cooled carpet replacement attempts.
#6913
Race Car
Frustrating that the seller posted it is 1175kg w/o any supporting info around that claim. Two people, me included, have asked him to expound upon that. If that were somehow true, my interest would go beyond mere curiosity.
#6914
Rennlist Member
It does seem unlikely given the dynamat, steel body, full engine bay (rear blower, ac, etc), stereo, and so forth. I don't think it's and impossible dry weight, however. EDIT: Geez, rear seats also. Lots of leather. Doesn't appear possible without a heavy dose of composites which aren't noted.
Last edited by tjb616; 02-06-2021 at 03:59 PM.
#6915
Race Car
Since my prior post, the Seller replied. And this response is insufficient for me to bid on the car.
Last edited by tstafford; 02-06-2021 at 04:04 PM. Reason: Clarification