SimonExtreme

I didn't realsise this might have been your work! My PO had his car looked after by Autofarm and in August 2002 AmD did a re-chip, hot film and throttle body. Might you have done this?

Red rooster

Simon,

I expect so . I did a few hundred 964s over the years !
Like a lot of people , I guess , I was initially very suspicious of Colins results but as the story has unfolded it becomes obvious that he has struck gold !!!
All motors need spark advance,correct fuelling and flow to make power.
It looks like Motec is providing fuelling in a way that the 964 motor likes.
A mass , film unit has the same flow as a piece of pipe so eliminates the flap constriction. Spark advance can be the same on both systems . Really just leaves how the fuel is delivered.
Something to look at over the winter !!

All the best

Geoff

NineMeister

No, my last comment does not cloud the issue and I disagree that it cannot be done (provided that you include larger injectors in the deal), it is simply a challenge to all those genuine Motronic tuners out there to either "put up or shut up". Since so many people are saying that it can be done why has anyone not done it? I sincerely hope that Geoff has a go at his own 964 over the winter, fits a set of larger injectors, a mass flow kit or TPS and finds another 30hp, because if/when he does he will prove that I have been right all along.

I do agree that live remapping the std ecu, removing the airbox lid, fitting a K&N and a cat bypass will give excellent results and value for money. Paying the extra for a MAF kit I am not so sure, but there is a small gain for another £800 or so. Trouble is though that there are so few people around who can properly live map Motronic (especially Stateside) that most folk will accept the limitations of a generic chip for $100. For those, like us, who will not settle for anything but maximum spoot, Motec seems to be the only option.

Lorenfb

"it all comes down to trust. Do you trust someone like Loren who comes along every once in a while, rattles a few cages, spins other peoples comments and then offers absolutely no evidence or data whatsoever to back up his arguments;"

Nine???? or whatever.

I'm NOT the one promoting/selling/B.S.ing about how performance can be make by wasting
a lot money on performance tuners, e.g. Motec. Nor am I promoting modifying the Motronic DME
for more performance. The issue I raise is that the Motec system has no REAL benefit over
the 964 Motronic system for a stock engine, and this has been exemplified by the data
presented here, i.e. a real joke & a waste of Rennlist bandwidth. And for those naive ones that
get "sucked into" wasting their money without REAL proof of such, i.e real improvements,
it's too bad!

Bottom line: Spend your money at the track with a few DE classes, you'll get a better return on your money!!!!!!!!!!!!

loot87

It's not a waste of bandwidth. It's lively debate. And very entertaining. You live in Manhattan Beach for Christsake. Relax. Have an In'n'Out.

Red rooster

Colin,
Unfortunately my 964 has had a 993 OBD1 motor and system for a while now.

I still have a 964 DME and bits so I will be firing up the engine simulator and taking a look at what else may help . A few thoughts are buzzing around so lets see.

Loren,
I can understand that with the poor fuel available in California the results from DME modifications could also be poor .
I have also seen so much BS that I can understand where you are coming from.
However if someone wants to modify their car then helping to point them in the right direction is the right thing to do ?
My 964 has RS brakes etc which I know are a waste of time for the road but I WANTED them !
I guess thats human nature .

All the best

Geoff

DaveK

Although this is true - the reality is that it's not what a lot of people want (or at least, not only what they want). I have no doubt that if I was driving a 500bhp sports car, the average F1 driver could still beat me around a track even if they were driving a Ford Fiesta. But if I had the choice tomorrow between spending £1K on some driving lessons and £10K to get 100bhp extra for my car - I'd take the second option. I like having a fast car.

After all - you could just sell the 964, get a less expensive less sporty car, invest in some DE classes so you end up faster than you were in the 964 and pocket the difference. Quids in. But none of us are going to do that are we?(Well, except perhaps stuart1997 but we'll forgive him ).

KirkF

I kinda wish Colin / Geoff would offer the same kit in a slightly less expensive form. The Motec hardware is god awful expensive. Its the 'top of the line' EFI manufacturer. How about something a little less expensive like Haltech?

And as long as I'm putting out a wish list, why not market a supercharger kit, with EFI replacement.

And how about a kit to get rid of the dual distributors. Even my hyundai doesnt have a distributor anymore.



Ok. I'll be quiet now.



Kirk

Geoffrey

"How about something a little less expensive like Haltech?"

While Haltech ECUs work, they are not as reliable as MoTeC, has sofware issues, don't like the factory mag sensors, doesn't work with factory temp sensors, etc. But to your point, yes another ECU manufacturer could be an option, however Colin has developed the kit around MoTeC and I am a MoTeC dealer so I really wouldn't support something else. FWIW, the MoTeC ECU is not so much more expensive than other ECUs and is extremely stable and reliable. You'll spend more TIME getting another ECU to work than a MoTeC which will work with all of the factory sensors where Haltech, Electromotive, AEM,...etc. will not and will require additional wiring. This is important when the kit is designed to utilize the factory wire harness and sensors.

"And as long as I'm putting out a wish list, why not market a supercharger kit, with EFI replacement."

I've been there and without the 7th injector it does not work well. Yes, you could develop a MoTeC kit with a 7th or 8th injector, but again, TPC already has a kit, so why add the extra cost?

"And how about a kit to get rid of the dual distributors. Even my hyundai doesnt have a distributor anymore."

What is wrong with the dual distributor? Of all the ignition systems out there, I chose a dual distributor controlled by a CDI controller in my race car. A direct ignition sequential ignition will increase the costs substantially and the dual distributor works very well.

NineMeister

Somehow I think the joke is on you for not being able to tell the difference between a 301hp graph and a 339bhp graph, which at 12.6% nett gain exceeds your very own +/-5% b.s. tolerance for both runs.

That said, since my results are now in the public domain and you have offered no alternative data to back up your thoughts, let's just agree to disagree until you do have a positive input to make, ok?

All the best.

NineMeister

What's an In'n'Out??

Oooo, not so fast. Before you tell us Brits, maybe a better idea would be to have us all guess first, it could yield some pretty interesting answers!!

loot87

While several interpretations would fit, I was talking about the best burger joint in the world. I should have said "Go get a Double Double at In'n'Out".
Unfortunately, outside of Cali, Arizona, and Vegas, the world is deprived of this delicacy.
I've looked into getting a franchise in Colorado, because I think all of the Cali imports here would be all over it, but alas, it's not franchised.

SimonExtreme

It's a strange world. I am involved with car clubs where we have the opposite problem all the time. People are all too willing to accept tuning figures and it keeps ending in tears. People with no experience other than having watched "Fast and Furious" (but it was both of them!!) and with little industry background buy a few parts from Japan and end up as TUNERS! These guys blow up engines, do $000's of damage and often the poor victim ends up with nothing back.

We are lucky we are not talking about that here. We are arguing about whether you can get an extra 12.5% more power from a stock 964 engine for less than £3500+ tax! Let's at least be grateful that even those who seem to have agendas and accuse and counter accuse people of BS are at least not producing products that are damaging our cars. We are arguing over what I call "proper tuning".

SimonExtreme

Now you are talking but before we go too far, what evidence do you have that this is the best burger joint. I want to see graphs. Please explain if we are talking "stock" burger here. I want clear proof you can make a difference to a "stock" burger

NineMeister

ROFLMAO