Motec upgrade
10-12-2006, 06:54 PM
#136
Jean, please share information if you have it - otherwise your posts here will seem petty and pointless - and I haven't read many (if any) posts of yours that I have classified in that category. Is your Motronic the same as the one in the 964? Can yours be used in a 964? How much does it cost?
10-12-2006, 07:00 PM
#137
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Originally Posted by Christer
Jean, please share information if you have it - otherwise your posts here will seem petty and pointless
The exchange with Loren was at least educational.
10-12-2006, 07:08 PM
#138
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Christer, Thanks for your comment, I am not a tuner, I am not selling anything and it is against the charter if you are not a sponsor.
Yes I have a N/A ECU (964/993 the same) and twin plug MAP based setup on turbos and a quite fast and 100% reliable Porsche engine..
Don't know if it is the same that you need (....I am not a tuner....) but based on what I have read so far, it does sound like it. The approximate price was posted earlier but you would need to check on your own. If you do a search for my name you will find more information I guess, and some more petty posts I am sure
I am not running a popularity contest. If I see inaccurate statements (in my view), I choose to ask questions about them or debate them.
Yes I have a N/A ECU (964/993 the same) and twin plug MAP based setup on turbos and a quite fast and 100% reliable Porsche engine..
Don't know if it is the same that you need (....I am not a tuner....) but based on what I have read so far, it does sound like it. The approximate price was posted earlier but you would need to check on your own. If you do a search for my name you will find more information I guess, and some more petty posts I am sure
I am not running a popularity contest. If I see inaccurate statements (in my view), I choose to ask questions about them or debate them.
Last edited by Jean; 10-12-2006 at 07:24 PM.
10-12-2006, 07:42 PM
#139
Nordschleife Master
Jean, I deleted my post almost immediately because I realize that it would will just create more issues and was emotional rather than factual per se. Yep, you're right, I pressed send too quickly...and deleted it, but as I can see you were waiting for me to reply and I took the bait.
But...while we're on the topic, I was and still am appreciative of the Rennlist membership.
The way I see it is that you are the self proclaimed Rennlist Policeman and the purveyor of truth as you see it. Your first post here shows your eagerness to point out other's flaws and inconsistencies as you see it. You couldn't wait to get in on the disucssion to tell everyone how Colin and/or I am ripping everyone off. In fact, I can't recall a thread where you haven't been in the middle of a challenge. I don't think that is fair because as best as I can tell, you don't have any experience other than the end product of what others have done for you.
I also take issue with some of your statements which you KNOW are not true.
1) I have and do build engines on a limited basis, including my own and some Cup car engines. You know this and it is well documented here. Further, I have developed the machining capability to rebuild, port, flow test heads which I do myself. I chose not to build your engine when you asked and referred you to Todd at protomotive who is an excellent tuner with a long history of successful engines.
2) I've tuned more than a few engines, including some for Mazda for Grand Am Cup, over 100 911 Turbo engines ranging from 2.1l to 996tt running MoTeC, and I teach engine management classes, so I think I'm in a pretty good position to talk about engine management which is the only thing I have ever said I have expertise in.
3) I've not disparaged any other "real engine builders" That just is not fair on your part.
I'm not here selling anything and as I said before, I have enough to do without pounding through Rennlist looking for work. In fact, this whole thread is more trouble than its worth. You aren't a self proclaimed tuner, nor claim to be, but yet you seem to know what is right and what is wrong from all of your years of experience in what...? I mean really, what makes your opinions better than others? Because you don't believe something? Your sole source of information comes from someone else, or an AX22 GPS based datalogger which is easily manipulated. Everything that I have ever posted here was or can be backed up by data either from a dyno or from data logging of some sort. I've posted information freely here without bias, in fact, I've even sent you private information. I stand by what I've posted, and I stand by all of the data and my testing methodologies.
But...while we're on the topic, I was and still am appreciative of the Rennlist membership.
The way I see it is that you are the self proclaimed Rennlist Policeman and the purveyor of truth as you see it. Your first post here shows your eagerness to point out other's flaws and inconsistencies as you see it. You couldn't wait to get in on the disucssion to tell everyone how Colin and/or I am ripping everyone off. In fact, I can't recall a thread where you haven't been in the middle of a challenge. I don't think that is fair because as best as I can tell, you don't have any experience other than the end product of what others have done for you.
I also take issue with some of your statements which you KNOW are not true.
1) I have and do build engines on a limited basis, including my own and some Cup car engines. You know this and it is well documented here. Further, I have developed the machining capability to rebuild, port, flow test heads which I do myself. I chose not to build your engine when you asked and referred you to Todd at protomotive who is an excellent tuner with a long history of successful engines.
2) I've tuned more than a few engines, including some for Mazda for Grand Am Cup, over 100 911 Turbo engines ranging from 2.1l to 996tt running MoTeC, and I teach engine management classes, so I think I'm in a pretty good position to talk about engine management which is the only thing I have ever said I have expertise in.
3) I've not disparaged any other "real engine builders" That just is not fair on your part.
I'm not here selling anything and as I said before, I have enough to do without pounding through Rennlist looking for work. In fact, this whole thread is more trouble than its worth. You aren't a self proclaimed tuner, nor claim to be, but yet you seem to know what is right and what is wrong from all of your years of experience in what...? I mean really, what makes your opinions better than others? Because you don't believe something? Your sole source of information comes from someone else, or an AX22 GPS based datalogger which is easily manipulated. Everything that I have ever posted here was or can be backed up by data either from a dyno or from data logging of some sort. I've posted information freely here without bias, in fact, I've even sent you private information. I stand by what I've posted, and I stand by all of the data and my testing methodologies.
10-12-2006, 08:04 PM
#140
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Does anyone know what this thread is about anymore? I know I don't.
The last time the topic of Motec came up, I felt a little uninformed about it all. I went out and got three very good books:
How to Understand, Service & Modify Bosche Fuel Injection & Engine Management by Charles O. Probst, SAE
Building & Tuning High Performance Electronic Fuel Injection, by Ben Stradler
Forced Induction Performance Tuning, by A. Graham Bell
I would recommend them to anyone who wants to be more knowledgeable about the Motronic or other aftermarket ECUs. They won't make you an expert but their great for ensuring you have a good working knowledge. (The book by Graham Bell is a gold mine. When I get a chance I intend on ordering more of his books.)
Kirk
The last time the topic of Motec came up, I felt a little uninformed about it all. I went out and got three very good books:
How to Understand, Service & Modify Bosche Fuel Injection & Engine Management by Charles O. Probst, SAE
Building & Tuning High Performance Electronic Fuel Injection, by Ben Stradler
Forced Induction Performance Tuning, by A. Graham Bell
I would recommend them to anyone who wants to be more knowledgeable about the Motronic or other aftermarket ECUs. They won't make you an expert but their great for ensuring you have a good working knowledge. (The book by Graham Bell is a gold mine. When I get a chance I intend on ordering more of his books.)
Kirk
10-12-2006, 10:56 PM
#141
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"Does anyone know what this thread is about anymore? I know I don't."
I haven't forgotten and have tried to stay on topic till now.
As all of you, I've gone through many threads and topics containing information that was helpful or just interesting and I've never thought it my right to exclude anyone from the discussion just because they held a differing viewpoint. I cost me no personal discomfort to disagree or have someone disagree with me. I sometimes test those who I believe have knowledge that they may present it in such a way -sometimes many ways - that I gain better understanding.
Geoffrey,
You have gone beyond the right you and all of us are given and have toward this forum.
Noah
I haven't forgotten and have tried to stay on topic till now.
As all of you, I've gone through many threads and topics containing information that was helpful or just interesting and I've never thought it my right to exclude anyone from the discussion just because they held a differing viewpoint. I cost me no personal discomfort to disagree or have someone disagree with me. I sometimes test those who I believe have knowledge that they may present it in such a way -sometimes many ways - that I gain better understanding.
Geoffrey,
You have gone beyond the right you and all of us are given and have toward this forum.
Noah
10-13-2006, 02:59 AM
#142
Originally Posted by Jean
Christer, Thanks for your comment, I am not a tuner, I am not selling anything and it is against the charter if you are not a sponsor.
Yes I have a N/A ECU (964/993 the same) and twin plug MAP based setup on turbos and a quite fast and 100% reliable Porsche engine..
Don't know if it is the same that you need (....I am not a tuner....) but based on what I have read so far, it does sound like it. The approximate price was posted earlier but you would need to check on your own. If you do a search for my name you will find more information I guess, and some more petty posts I am sure
I am not running a popularity contest. If I see inaccurate statements (in my view), I choose to ask questions about them or debate them.
Yes I have a N/A ECU (964/993 the same) and twin plug MAP based setup on turbos and a quite fast and 100% reliable Porsche engine..
Don't know if it is the same that you need (....I am not a tuner....) but based on what I have read so far, it does sound like it. The approximate price was posted earlier but you would need to check on your own. If you do a search for my name you will find more information I guess, and some more petty posts I am sure
I am not running a popularity contest. If I see inaccurate statements (in my view), I choose to ask questions about them or debate them.
10-13-2006, 03:10 AM
#143
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Originally Posted by Christer
now I just need to know *who* can tune my motronics to any level that I want, to take into account my particular setup......are they in the UK? US? Saudi?
10-13-2006, 03:37 AM
#144
Hi
I guess you know what is going to happen now?
What are his results on NA engines?
How would this work as the US is no good for me? I just send him a list of my mods and he guesses what needs changing?
Does he have dyno of before and after on his NA conversions?
How come no one knows about him in the NA world? (Turbos? Yes.)
I guess you know what is going to happen now?
What are his results on NA engines?
How would this work as the US is no good for me? I just send him a list of my mods and he guesses what needs changing?
Does he have dyno of before and after on his NA conversions?
How come no one knows about him in the NA world? (Turbos? Yes.)
10-13-2006, 05:33 AM
#145
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Originally Posted by N51
The discussion, thus far, has only surrounded the street engines and it is where my thoughts are. You mention the 9M intake as now being a part of the 9M Motec conversion. With your comment in regard to bigger injectors, do you have plans to market them in conjunction with your intake+Motec? It would a viable upgrade considering it approaches ~340bhp, and would make an interesting conversion for Geoffrey's forthcoming project. As for the heads, I would think any number of fine North American tuners could - with cams - find the extra 10-15hp, and at a considerable cost savings.
Noah
Noah
I'm not sure why I did not say this first, but the basic Motec conversion has been detailed on our old website for more than 5 years, if you have not managed to find it here's the link:
http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/...58&quickview=1
The dyno result posted on the link was from the first ever 9m Motec conversion, we have since bettered the result with refinements to the Motec maps & revised intake, although it also helps now that I have improved cooling air flow on our dyno installation which allows us to run the engine constantly under full load. The specification of the 9m conversion is listed, you will find that it includes injectors. If you also follow the links on the page you will probably find out a lot more information about our conversion and the theory behind our Motec package than you will get from reading this thread.
Jean,
If you also take the trouble to follow the link, at the bottom you will read this:
"However, if you know of an alternative engine management package and would prefer us to fit it and compare the results we would be happy to help out. Just dont ask us to iron out all the bugs, ok?". This request has also been there for over 5 years and to date I have not had one request from a customer nor one suggestion from a supplier, although I have done over 30 Motec conversions.
The 9m/4 Tech stroker crank & rods were only finished around 8 weeks ago & we are now starting the third 4.0 litre engine build. Engine 1 is in a RHD 964RS Lwt & made 440hp @ 7000rpm on our old design of race cam with 13mm lift, number 2 is destined for a 964 Speedster, number 3 will be in my 993RS - the same one that won the overall title in the Porsche Club Speed Championship with 11 wins from 12 events in 2006 using a 3.8 itre version of the same engine (you have the AX22 plot from this car). In engines 2 & 3 we are hoping to have fit the new 9m/4T valve train which will be running with 15mm of lift on the valve and have an safe 8500rpm capability.
10-13-2006, 07:39 AM
#146
Racer
With the sort of people reading and contributing to this thread the bickering does'nt suprise. Engineers, technicians and alike are well known for it as they develop there own views and are generally or tend to be opinionated people (self included to my detriment). I am sure the personal comments of some where done in the heat of the moment and should not be taken to heart.
I understand Hans Metzger and the engineers at TAG had many a heated discussion when developing the F1 turbo cars!!!
I am still interested to learn from the few Motronics experts on this thread what background reading and knowledge is useful for this subject. Everyone has to start somewhere and i'm wondering where they started??? where you from a programming background or did you learn as you went along or what???
I understand Hans Metzger and the engineers at TAG had many a heated discussion when developing the F1 turbo cars!!!
I am still interested to learn from the few Motronics experts on this thread what background reading and knowledge is useful for this subject. Everyone has to start somewhere and i'm wondering where they started??? where you from a programming background or did you learn as you went along or what???
10-13-2006, 08:40 AM
#147
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
The 9m/4 Tech stroker crank & rods were only finished around 8 weeks ago & we are now starting the third 4.0 litre engine build. Engine 1 is in a RHD 964RS Lwt & made 440hp @ 7000rpm on our old design of race cam with 13mm lift, number 2 is destined for a 964 Speedster, number 3 will be in my 993RS - the same one that won the overall title in the Porsche Club Speed Championship with 11 wins from 12 events in 2006 using a 3.8 itre version of the same engine (you have the AX22 plot from this car). In engines 2 & 3 we are hoping to have fit the new 9m/4T valve train which will be running with 15mm of lift on the valve and have an safe 8500rpm capability.
Supercharger.... I don't need no stinking supercharger!
I've been following this thread with great interest. Colin... I wish you guys were in the US and Geoffrey... I wish you were alittle closer to me. Does anyone have an idea what the package would cost for MoTeC, 9M's 4.0 kit, their intake, cams, etc to get to that 440HP? (And when?) This has got to be the way to go over a supercharger if they are similarly priced!
10-13-2006, 09:10 AM
#148
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
Jean
Please tell me how I can get my Motronics DME mapped for MAP and bigger injectors. I also need the map to take into account the exhaust and inlet systems on my car. Please tell me how much I will need to spend. I have been looking for about 20 months for somebody who could do that. I have the money. I have the desire. The only way I can achieve what I want seems to be fitting a fully mappable ECU, such as Motec.
This is a serious question, no tricks. Show me it can be done and I will do it, so long as it gives as good or nearly as good results as is being offered by Motec tuners (not just Colin) and gives a worthwhile saving.
Please tell me how I can get my Motronics DME mapped for MAP and bigger injectors. I also need the map to take into account the exhaust and inlet systems on my car. Please tell me how much I will need to spend. I have been looking for about 20 months for somebody who could do that. I have the money. I have the desire. The only way I can achieve what I want seems to be fitting a fully mappable ECU, such as Motec.
This is a serious question, no tricks. Show me it can be done and I will do it, so long as it gives as good or nearly as good results as is being offered by Motec tuners (not just Colin) and gives a worthwhile saving.
You will get the most "Porsche equivalent" power and torque which your set up will allow
10-13-2006, 10:12 AM
#149
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"Noah,
I'm not sure why I did not say this first, but the basic Motec conversion has been detailed on our old website for more than 5 years, if you have not managed to find it here's the link:
http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/...58&quickview=1
The dyno result posted on the link was from the first ever 9m Motec conversion, we have since bettered the result with refinements to the Motec maps & revised intake, although it also helps now that I have improved cooling air flow on our dyno installation which allows us to run the engine constantly under full load. The specification of the 9m conversion is listed, you will find that it includes injectors. If you also follow the links on the page you will probably find out a lot more information about our conversion and the theory behind our Motec package than you will get from reading this thread."
Colin,
Thanks for that. I kept stumbling over the injectors. Still, the numbers as I read them, make the billet heads the least cost effective of your modifications. when you can get ~340hp with your Motec conversion, alone. Almost makes you in competition with yourself.
Noah
I'm not sure why I did not say this first, but the basic Motec conversion has been detailed on our old website for more than 5 years, if you have not managed to find it here's the link:
http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/...58&quickview=1
The dyno result posted on the link was from the first ever 9m Motec conversion, we have since bettered the result with refinements to the Motec maps & revised intake, although it also helps now that I have improved cooling air flow on our dyno installation which allows us to run the engine constantly under full load. The specification of the 9m conversion is listed, you will find that it includes injectors. If you also follow the links on the page you will probably find out a lot more information about our conversion and the theory behind our Motec package than you will get from reading this thread."
Colin,
Thanks for that. I kept stumbling over the injectors. Still, the numbers as I read them, make the billet heads the least cost effective of your modifications. when you can get ~340hp with your Motec conversion, alone. Almost makes you in competition with yourself.
Noah
10-13-2006, 10:29 AM
#150
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Rick,
Dont give up on superchargers ! I am a big fan of the centrifugal type for a whole heap of reasons. Pretty well a motor driven turbo compressor with high efficiency a real possibility.
There are a few 964s out there running these with HUGE bhp .
Screw types I am not so happy with. Been brought in on a few conversions and never came away really happy.Just a personal view.
With forced induction, bhp can be huge in a way that " tuning " can never acheive.
Just another viewpoint .
All the best
Geoff
Dont give up on superchargers ! I am a big fan of the centrifugal type for a whole heap of reasons. Pretty well a motor driven turbo compressor with high efficiency a real possibility.
There are a few 964s out there running these with HUGE bhp .
Screw types I am not so happy with. Been brought in on a few conversions and never came away really happy.Just a personal view.
With forced induction, bhp can be huge in a way that " tuning " can never acheive.
Just another viewpoint .
All the best
Geoff