Motec upgrade
10-12-2006, 04:28 PM
#121
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Colin,
Thanks for your reply, but all the prior discussion concerned the 964? When you have found ~340hp with Motec+injectors+intake for x$$$, then the 9M heads at ~$11000 dollars(and 10-15hp) will be very expensive hp. I'm a little confused concerning your comment on the VR, as the my focus was on your intake for the 964. The VR can be adapted, however, your intake - as you have put forth - may be a better option and simpler?
Noah
Thanks for your reply, but all the prior discussion concerned the 964? When you have found ~340hp with Motec+injectors+intake for x$$$, then the 9M heads at ~$11000 dollars(and 10-15hp) will be very expensive hp. I'm a little confused concerning your comment on the VR, as the my focus was on your intake for the 964. The VR can be adapted, however, your intake - as you have put forth - may be a better option and simpler?
Noah
10-12-2006, 04:48 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
I hope that Colin won't mind but let me put some real figures on the page.....
My car run on Motronics as far as we can push it on standard injectors 309bhp
Car with standard AFM and a live remap of Motronics 301bhp
Car with Motec mapped by 9M, 9M intake and decat 339bhp
(figures extrapolated based on blow up of graph and copy of own graph)
My car run on Motronics as far as we can push it on standard injectors 309bhp
Car with standard AFM and a live remap of Motronics 301bhp
Car with Motec mapped by 9M, 9M intake and decat 339bhp
(figures extrapolated based on blow up of graph and copy of own graph)
Simon, care to explain to me why would a Motronic not reach the Motec level of HP? If you have already explained it, forgive me, I have just read a couple of posts so far when I stomped into this.
10-12-2006, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
Loren, I agree with you, Porsche/Bosch were never asleep at the wheel, the Motronic ecu is a fantastic piece of kit and is probably is far more capable piece of kit compared to the Motec M48 ecu that I use, but the bottom line is that neither you, Geoff, Geoffrey nor myself can easily retune it live on a dyno and have full control over all the tables within that ecu. And that is the problem, which is the only reason why I chose to focus my development around the Motec ecu.
10-12-2006, 05:18 PM
#124
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Originally Posted by Jean
Oh now I have my answer, so it is not really Motronic, is the tuners not knowing how to tune it. Makes more sense.
10-12-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by N51
Colin,
Thanks for your reply, but all the prior discussion concerned the 964? When you have found ~340hp with Motec+injectors+intake for x$$$, then the 9M heads at ~$11000 dollars(and 10-15hp) will be very expensive hp. I'm a little confused concerning your comment on the VR, as the my focus was on your intake for the 964. The VR can be adapted, however, your intake - as you have put forth - may be a better option and simpler?
Noah
Thanks for your reply, but all the prior discussion concerned the 964? When you have found ~340hp with Motec+injectors+intake for x$$$, then the 9M heads at ~$11000 dollars(and 10-15hp) will be very expensive hp. I'm a little confused concerning your comment on the VR, as the my focus was on your intake for the 964. The VR can be adapted, however, your intake - as you have put forth - may be a better option and simpler?
Noah
With respect to tthe heads, do you remember me saying that n/a tuning is a matter of fixing bottlenecks? IMO the standard head is the next bottleneck in the system. The good news is that the production 9m billet head is exactly the same as the one I use on our 3.8/4.0 litre race engines which make between 420 and 450bhp, they are a bolt on solution and require no specialist work to fit. Sure, they costs a lot to buy, but they also cost a furtune to design & develop and a fair chunk to make.There is no hard sell with a product like these, you either want them for your engine or not, and if you want them that's the price because we simply cannot sell them for less because they are barely contributing to the development costs as it is.
If you want big n/a power the stock heads fall short, so you would either need to do a lot of port welding & flow bench rework (good luck finding the right shop to do it) if you are to come close to their performance. Serious port work of this nature would typically cost around 50% of the price of a new billet head, so when you add into the equation head castings that are over 15 years old & broken ceramic exhaust port liners the price should look a little more reasonable. Of course you could always buy new Porsche heads and work on these instead, but at the last count these cost more than the 9m billet heads.
10-12-2006, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jean
Oh now I have my answer, so it is not really Motronic, is the tuners not knowing how to tune it. Makes more sense.
No, with all due respect Jean I naturally have to disagree with you, the concensus is that its the tuners who do know how to tune it cannot be bothered to invest the time an money into developing it as a commercial venture that is the answer. As I said before if or when they do I will be the first one in the queue, until then I'll stick to what I know, i.e. designing engine parts that work.
10-12-2006, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
The 9m intake discussed is part of the 9m Motec conversion and its purpose is to replace the stock airflow meter & airbox with a more efficient unit that increases the air velocity through the stock throttle body to increase manifold pressure at full load. You cannot use this part with Motronic as there is no provision for an air flow device - Motec uses a combination of throttle position and MAP/BAP for the fuel/ignition tables. Sorry if you got the wrong idea!
Originally Posted by NineMeister
The good news is that the production 9m billet head is exactly the same as the one I use on our 3.8/4.0 litre race engines which make between 420 and 450bhp, they are a bolt on solution and require no specialist work to fit.
10-12-2006, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
I wondered how long it would take.....
Sorry Geoffrey and you are not happy to see me.... Sorry if I interfere with this nice "balade a deux"I was talking about Motronic, not engine parts. As you know my car runs on Motronic, I agree it is a turbo engine, but as you "very" well know, those are very tricky to make them run on Motronic in highly tuned states...... As I mentioned above, it is $1500 to have a state of the art ECU that runs with whatever setup you want. Concerning time, it takes my tuner less than 2 days to send me back different programs, they are usually for free too
10-12-2006, 05:49 PM
#130
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Jean, you have the ability to program changes on your laptop and burn a new chip which is then installed in your ECU. This is far from the capability for real time mapping with easy to use software which is essential in determining proper ignition timing. What we are talking about, you do not have.
10-12-2006, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
The 9m intake discussed is part of the 9m Motec conversion and its purpose is to replace the stock airflow meter & airbox with a more efficient unit that increases the air velocity through the stock throttle body to increase manifold pressure at full load. You cannot use this part with Motronic as there is no provision for an air flow device - Motec uses a combination of throttle position and MAP/BAP for the fuel/ignition tables. Sorry if you got the wrong idea!
With respect to tthe heads, do you remember me saying that n/a tuning is a matter of fixing bottlenecks? IMO the standard head is the next bottleneck in the system. The good news is that the production 9m billet head is exactly the same as the one I use on our 3.8/4.0 litre race engines which make between 420 and 450bhp, they are a bolt on solution and require no specialist work to fit. Sure, they costs a lot to buy, but they also cost a furtune to design & develop and a fair chunk to make.There is no hard sell with a product like these, you either want them for your engine or not, and if you want them that's the price because we simply cannot sell them for less because they are barely contributing to the development costs as it is.
If you want big n/a power the stock heads fall short, so you would either need to do a lot of port welding & flow bench rework (good luck finding the right shop to do it) if you are to come close to their performance. Serious port work of this nature would typically cost around 50% of the price of a new billet head, so when you add into the equation head castings that are over 15 years old & broken ceramic exhaust port liners the price should look a little more reasonable. Of course you could always buy new Porsche heads and work on these instead, but at the last count these cost more than the 9m billet heads.
With respect to tthe heads, do you remember me saying that n/a tuning is a matter of fixing bottlenecks? IMO the standard head is the next bottleneck in the system. The good news is that the production 9m billet head is exactly the same as the one I use on our 3.8/4.0 litre race engines which make between 420 and 450bhp, they are a bolt on solution and require no specialist work to fit. Sure, they costs a lot to buy, but they also cost a furtune to design & develop and a fair chunk to make.There is no hard sell with a product like these, you either want them for your engine or not, and if you want them that's the price because we simply cannot sell them for less because they are barely contributing to the development costs as it is.
If you want big n/a power the stock heads fall short, so you would either need to do a lot of port welding & flow bench rework (good luck finding the right shop to do it) if you are to come close to their performance. Serious port work of this nature would typically cost around 50% of the price of a new billet head, so when you add into the equation head castings that are over 15 years old & broken ceramic exhaust port liners the price should look a little more reasonable. Of course you could always buy new Porsche heads and work on these instead, but at the last count these cost more than the 9m billet heads.
Noah
10-12-2006, 05:57 PM
#132
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Geoffrey
I am not talking about what "I" can do, since obviously it is not at the reach of every one (although it is so simple when the tuner is committed to help you). My post pointed out initially at the comment that Motronic could not be tuned to achieve high HP levels, which was later clarified by Colin in his post that I quoted...
I have MAP and throttle position sensing on my ECUs on Motronic, so it obviously is feasible one way or the other... Who needs Motec? Unless you want to......
I am not talking about what "I" can do, since obviously it is not at the reach of every one (although it is so simple when the tuner is committed to help you). My post pointed out initially at the comment that Motronic could not be tuned to achieve high HP levels, which was later clarified by Colin in his post that I quoted...
I have MAP and throttle position sensing on my ECUs on Motronic, so it obviously is feasible one way or the other... Who needs Motec? Unless you want to......
10-12-2006, 06:06 PM
#133
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Originally Posted by Jean
Geoffrey
I am not talking about what "I" can do, since obviously it is not at the reach of every one (although it is so simple when the tuner is committed to help you). My post pointed out initially at the comment that Motronic could not be tuned to achieve high HP levels, which was later clarified by Colin in his post that I quoted...
I have MAP and throttle position sensing on my ECUs on Motronic, so it obviously is feasible one way or the other... Who needs Motec? Unless you want to......
I am not talking about what "I" can do, since obviously it is not at the reach of every one (although it is so simple when the tuner is committed to help you). My post pointed out initially at the comment that Motronic could not be tuned to achieve high HP levels, which was later clarified by Colin in his post that I quoted...
I have MAP and throttle position sensing on my ECUs on Motronic, so it obviously is feasible one way or the other... Who needs Motec? Unless you want to......
Please tell me how I can get my Motronics DME mapped for MAP and bigger injectors. I also need the map to take into account the exhaust and inlet systems on my car. Please tell me how much I will need to spend. I have been looking for about 20 months for somebody who could do that. I have the money. I have the desire. The only way I can achieve what I want seems to be fitting a fully mappable ECU, such as Motec.
This is a serious question, no tricks. Show me it can be done and I will do it, so long as it gives as good or nearly as good results as is being offered by Motec tuners (not just Colin) and gives a worthwhile saving.
10-12-2006, 06:09 PM
#134
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Geoffrey,
---Jean, you have the ability to program changes on your laptop and burn a new chip which is then installed in your ECU. This is far from the capability for real time mapping with easy to use software which is essential in determining proper ignition timing. What we are talking about, you do not have.---
but I do !!!
All the best
Geoff
---Jean, you have the ability to program changes on your laptop and burn a new chip which is then installed in your ECU. This is far from the capability for real time mapping with easy to use software which is essential in determining proper ignition timing. What we are talking about, you do not have.---
but I do !!!
All the best
Geoff
10-12-2006, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey
"I am not talking about what "I" can do"
That is a good thing, because as far as I can tell, you have never been on a dyno nor tuned an engine beyond what a tuner can help you with and are committed to arguing about things you know very little about with those that do. I do not know what makes you feel that you have an axe to grind here on Rennlist, but the consistency of your threads certainly lead one to believe that you've been mistreated as some point in life.
That is a good thing, because as far as I can tell, you have never been on a dyno nor tuned an engine beyond what a tuner can help you with and are committed to arguing about things you know very little about with those that do. I do not know what makes you feel that you have an axe to grind here on Rennlist, but the consistency of your threads certainly lead one to believe that you've been mistreated as some point in life.
I regret the minute I paid for your membership without you knowing.
The only axe that I have to grind here on Rennlist is against charlatans like you who have never built an engine in their lives and have tuned a few Porsche cars here and there and have the arrogance of making fun of real builders with more experience than your age.
I am not trying to sell anything to anyone, I am not a self proclaimed tuner, nor claim to be one. I would rather never be on a dyno than being on your dynos, based on the numbers that you consistently throw around that don't make any sense other than for a few uninformed people around here. I live in freaking Saudi Arabia and could not care less about what you do or don't , or how deep in bed you are with Colin... Fact is both of you guys have a vested interest in this and are clearly helping each other out...
Who are you to tell me what I can or not argue on this forum. With my comments I might be helping out other rennlisters from putting their money behind a Motec just because you sell it..
Simon, when you will be genuinely interested send me a PM, my tuner is not a sponsor, and I don't like to drive business for him over here (nor anywhere else that is). You want proof, look at the numbers on my signature...
Edit: Geoffrey why did you delete your post buddy?