Motec upgrade
10-12-2006, 10:41 AM
#106
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Loren, I agree with you, Porsche/Bosch were never asleep at the wheel, the Motronic ecu is a fantastic piece of kit and is probably is far more capable piece of kit compared to the Motec M48 ecu that I use, but the bottom line is that neither you, Geoff, Geoffrey nor myself can easily retune it live on a dyno and have full control over all the tables within that ecu. And that is the problem, which is the only reason why I chose to focus my development around the Motec ecu. The result is that we have now done enough conversions to have ended up with a system that, according to my customers (on a 964RS with a lightweight flywheel), idles perfectly without stalling, will pull 5th gear on the idle map with zero throttle, is more responsive everywhere in the rpm range, makes more power at WOT and returns better mpg on a run. To date I have had no complaints about the results nor the price, indeed one customer is on his second system on his third RS after he sold the last one and the new buyer wanted the Motec leaving on.
We all know that you can buy an emulator & programmer for less than £3000 that will let you into the hex code, but this is only half of the battle as the "directory" to the code is not available from Bosch, so the only way to find out how to positively alter the code is to look for maps which are interrogated whilst the engine is running and then embark on a programme of trial and error testing. I for one do not have the time nor the patience to go through this pain barrier so unless/until somebody writes a Motec style interface with real numbers in visible tables running on a laptop, through a lead that plugs into the Motronic ecu, I cannot see a future in using the Motronic to tune the 964. That said, as soon as one is available I would like to be first in the queue.
We all know that you can buy an emulator & programmer for less than £3000 that will let you into the hex code, but this is only half of the battle as the "directory" to the code is not available from Bosch, so the only way to find out how to positively alter the code is to look for maps which are interrogated whilst the engine is running and then embark on a programme of trial and error testing. I for one do not have the time nor the patience to go through this pain barrier so unless/until somebody writes a Motec style interface with real numbers in visible tables running on a laptop, through a lead that plugs into the Motronic ecu, I cannot see a future in using the Motronic to tune the 964. That said, as soon as one is available I would like to be first in the queue.
10-12-2006, 10:45 AM
#107
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Loren
I don't know why I fall for this every time but I do. Oh, I know why! It is because I am concerned that somebody might just think you have a valid point and that you aren't being an arguementative SOB who really isn't contributing to the debate at all.
This isn't about what Colin is doing, or Motec or anything like this. This is about you thinking that you know more than anybody else and are some guardian of a great thruth that is being distorted!.
Why can you not accept what has been posted on more than one occasion above a few simple facts. When refereing to "stock", it is a commonly accepted this means an engine that hasn't been opened up, had head work, cams or any other inernal modifications. It is common to discuss "stock" engines with modifications to ancillaries, such as exhausts, filters, inlets etc. Colin has been very clear with his claims as to what is done to a stock engine to produce the power. So why the fixation on stock?
Next thing you need to do is to get out a calculator. Nobody has used published power figures anywhere. As the one who has been extrapultaing "stock" figures, I have something to answer for but I am sure you don't think that your "stock" engines produce 268 bhp, which is what the claimed 12.5% would make a stock engine! What I have done is, based on other rolling road figures done on other days, used a very conservative (high) base figure for stock so as to at least give some idea of the magnitude of the improvements
Now, I am sorry that isn't accurate enough for you but in the scale of the debate, you are the one who has already pointed out that small amounts of difference can be due to noise! In fact, I am very confident that if we really could find a "stock" car, by your definition, that the actual gains from both the live remaps and the Motec would be better. However, as I have extraoplated the data from various rolling road days, I thought the prodent thing to do would be to "roll up" potential errors so as to not overstate any figures.
We are not trying to write a PhD thesis but we are trying to understand the scale of improvement. I believe that is valid for this type of forum.
Next issue is your rather derogatory comment
Lets take them one at a time. One of the major reasons people go for new chips, live remapping or motec on the 964RS is to erradicate the problems of hunting/idle undershoot etc. Yes, this can be done on the Motronics, but you would need to be a pretty poor mapper not to get a better idle on a 964RS with the Motec. I have read posts on other forums where owners with Motec (not just from Colin) say that this is worth the cost of Motec alone! Most peopel consider my car (live mapped by AmD and probably Red Rooster) to be well behaved in this area but it is one of the things I most dislike about driving the car in traffic.
Next is the issue of servicability. I am not sure if that is the srvicability of the car in general or the Motec system in particular. If it is the first, this really shouldn't change because of Motec, or maybe you have forgotten how to service a car without using a hammer to tell you what is wrong
If it is the Motec, that can be a bit more problematic although I am fortunate enough that in the countries I want to live, I have more than enough support. I realsie that the USA is a large country and that this could cause problems but there are about 30 Motec dealers in the US and I bet there are a lot more who know enough about car electronics and engine management systems for somebody like Geoffrey to give decent support, although maybe not to full dealership standard but that is something a buyer will hav eto factor. Who are you to make the judgement for them?
Finally, cost. That is subjective and up to the individual. To date, you have failed to come up with a single alternative other than John Speake. Well done for identifying him. I think he is great too and has a very clever way of getting into the 928 mapping. I had really thought that his methods were the answer. However, after corresponding with him, it seems he has NO INTEREST IN 964's!! and his stuff won't work with 964's either. On top of that, it's still not an ideal system as you cannot dynamically map and then just leave it. You have to unplug and burn a new EPROM and plug that in. Not ideal.
Loren, I think the only way you can usefully add to this debate is to offer alternatives, giving a proven increase in performance against a known starting pint and giving a price for that. PLEASE do so. I want to spend money on more power. Help me get it right. However, your best efforts to date are to point me in the direction of somebody who cannot help.
I don't know why I fall for this every time but I do. Oh, I know why! It is because I am concerned that somebody might just think you have a valid point and that you aren't being an arguementative SOB who really isn't contributing to the debate at all.
This isn't about what Colin is doing, or Motec or anything like this. This is about you thinking that you know more than anybody else and are some guardian of a great thruth that is being distorted!.
Why can you not accept what has been posted on more than one occasion above a few simple facts. When refereing to "stock", it is a commonly accepted this means an engine that hasn't been opened up, had head work, cams or any other inernal modifications. It is common to discuss "stock" engines with modifications to ancillaries, such as exhausts, filters, inlets etc. Colin has been very clear with his claims as to what is done to a stock engine to produce the power. So why the fixation on stock?
Next thing you need to do is to get out a calculator. Nobody has used published power figures anywhere. As the one who has been extrapultaing "stock" figures, I have something to answer for but I am sure you don't think that your "stock" engines produce 268 bhp, which is what the claimed 12.5% would make a stock engine! What I have done is, based on other rolling road figures done on other days, used a very conservative (high) base figure for stock so as to at least give some idea of the magnitude of the improvements
Now, I am sorry that isn't accurate enough for you but in the scale of the debate, you are the one who has already pointed out that small amounts of difference can be due to noise! In fact, I am very confident that if we really could find a "stock" car, by your definition, that the actual gains from both the live remaps and the Motec would be better. However, as I have extraoplated the data from various rolling road days, I thought the prodent thing to do would be to "roll up" potential errors so as to not overstate any figures.
We are not trying to write a PhD thesis but we are trying to understand the scale of improvement. I believe that is valid for this type of forum.
Next issue is your rather derogatory comment
...................................................................havin g to deal
with reliability & driveability problems, (hunting/idle undershoot) and/or
serviceability and most importantly COST, and because of this ("think")/desire
in terms of just "tuning
with reliability & driveability problems, (hunting/idle undershoot) and/or
serviceability and most importantly COST, and because of this ("think")/desire
in terms of just "tuning
Next is the issue of servicability. I am not sure if that is the srvicability of the car in general or the Motec system in particular. If it is the first, this really shouldn't change because of Motec, or maybe you have forgotten how to service a car without using a hammer to tell you what is wrong
If it is the Motec, that can be a bit more problematic although I am fortunate enough that in the countries I want to live, I have more than enough support. I realsie that the USA is a large country and that this could cause problems but there are about 30 Motec dealers in the US and I bet there are a lot more who know enough about car electronics and engine management systems for somebody like Geoffrey to give decent support, although maybe not to full dealership standard but that is something a buyer will hav eto factor. Who are you to make the judgement for them?
Finally, cost. That is subjective and up to the individual. To date, you have failed to come up with a single alternative other than John Speake. Well done for identifying him. I think he is great too and has a very clever way of getting into the 928 mapping. I had really thought that his methods were the answer. However, after corresponding with him, it seems he has NO INTEREST IN 964's!! and his stuff won't work with 964's either. On top of that, it's still not an ideal system as you cannot dynamically map and then just leave it. You have to unplug and burn a new EPROM and plug that in. Not ideal.
Loren, I think the only way you can usefully add to this debate is to offer alternatives, giving a proven increase in performance against a known starting pint and giving a price for that. PLEASE do so. I want to spend money on more power. Help me get it right. However, your best efforts to date are to point me in the direction of somebody who cannot help.
10-12-2006, 11:20 AM
#108
Three Wheelin'
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All ECUs that need interest this discussion ,work on the principle of look up tables ,the results of which are used to arrive at final injector duration and ignition timing .
Motronic has no inbuilt interface to allow simple software to alter table values.
What is used is an In Circuit Emulator usually for the Eprom.
With the correct emulator /software arrangement ,dynamic mapping of the 964/993 DMEs has been done for several years by myself and others.
However this approach does require comprehensive understanding of the DME being mapped. This is the block to widespread use and why a lot of tuners turn to more easily understood systems like Motec.
In fact an aftermarket system that did not major on ease of use would not have a commercial future !
This Motronic-Motec debate could go on for years ! The bottom line is that they are both engine management systems and both can be altered to give appropriate fuel/timing etc values.
When a significant performance difference arises it is because an important control parameter is different between the systems.With that parameter identified and equalised the two systems will then give equal results.
All the best
Geoff
Motronic has no inbuilt interface to allow simple software to alter table values.
What is used is an In Circuit Emulator usually for the Eprom.
With the correct emulator /software arrangement ,dynamic mapping of the 964/993 DMEs has been done for several years by myself and others.
However this approach does require comprehensive understanding of the DME being mapped. This is the block to widespread use and why a lot of tuners turn to more easily understood systems like Motec.
In fact an aftermarket system that did not major on ease of use would not have a commercial future !
This Motronic-Motec debate could go on for years ! The bottom line is that they are both engine management systems and both can be altered to give appropriate fuel/timing etc values.
When a significant performance difference arises it is because an important control parameter is different between the systems.With that parameter identified and equalised the two systems will then give equal results.
All the best
Geoff
10-12-2006, 11:40 AM
#109
"The Motronic tuning tool for the 928 which appears to be a live remapping emulator is exactly what would be needed on the 964 to easily remap a stock ECU. I'm not aware of any such systems for the 964 that are cost effective."
Geoffrey
"the Motronic ecu is a fantastic piece of kit and is probably is far more capable piece of kit compared to the Motec M48 ecu that I use, but the bottom line is that neither you, Geoff, Geoffrey nor myself can easily retune it live on a dyno and have full control over all the tables within that ecu"
Ninemeister
"This Motronic-Motec debate could go on for years ! The bottom line is that they are both engine management systems and both can be altered to give appropriate fuel/timing etc values."
Geoff
Looks like we all agree, i.e. If you're going to do major 964 engine mods,
e.g. Ninemeister intakes or heads, then Motec provides an easier engine
control/tweak solution given the available "tools".
Geoffrey
"the Motronic ecu is a fantastic piece of kit and is probably is far more capable piece of kit compared to the Motec M48 ecu that I use, but the bottom line is that neither you, Geoff, Geoffrey nor myself can easily retune it live on a dyno and have full control over all the tables within that ecu"
Ninemeister
"This Motronic-Motec debate could go on for years ! The bottom line is that they are both engine management systems and both can be altered to give appropriate fuel/timing etc values."
Geoff
Looks like we all agree, i.e. If you're going to do major 964 engine mods,
e.g. Ninemeister intakes or heads, then Motec provides an easier engine
control/tweak solution given the available "tools".
10-12-2006, 11:54 AM
#111
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Sorry guys but I cannot let this pass.
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With the correct emulator /software arrangement ,dynamic mapping of the 964/993 DMEs has been done for several years by myself and others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont need any bloody Motec !!
All the best
Geoff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the correct emulator /software arrangement ,dynamic mapping of the 964/993 DMEs has been done for several years by myself and others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont need any bloody Motec !!
All the best
Geoff
10-12-2006, 11:54 AM
#112
"And it only took 8 pages and 108 posts!"
That's the problem now days with emails and on-line communications (both suck) versus the good
old telephone and as Geoffrey & I can recently confirm!
That's the problem now days with emails and on-line communications (both suck) versus the good
old telephone and as Geoffrey & I can recently confirm!
10-12-2006, 11:54 AM
#113
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Geoff
As a "punter" I am only interested in the result, with a little VFM thrown in for good measure but that is subjective! I think what was done to my car at AmD was fantastic and shows the great potential of the Motrinic DME. I am pleased that i diodn't pay for it because I probably wouldn't have gone for the hot film as its VFM is questionable, although there does seem to be some benefit.
The question i would ask you is at what point you think it is really worth crossing over from Motronics to an easily mappable ECU, such as Motec. Is it when you want to go for bigger injectors or using other components that might give better data? What are there limitations you see. For instance, are there isssues to do with processor power?
I guess the reason I am asking is that this type of debate will keep rearing its ugly head until either somebody develops an easy way of accesssing the maps on the Motronics or, as you imply, a significant performance advantage comes from something else. Do you think that one day somebody will create the required acccess or will it remain, in the light of Motec, simply in the too hard and why bother catagory.
As a "punter" I am only interested in the result, with a little VFM thrown in for good measure but that is subjective! I think what was done to my car at AmD was fantastic and shows the great potential of the Motrinic DME. I am pleased that i diodn't pay for it because I probably wouldn't have gone for the hot film as its VFM is questionable, although there does seem to be some benefit.
The question i would ask you is at what point you think it is really worth crossing over from Motronics to an easily mappable ECU, such as Motec. Is it when you want to go for bigger injectors or using other components that might give better data? What are there limitations you see. For instance, are there isssues to do with processor power?
I guess the reason I am asking is that this type of debate will keep rearing its ugly head until either somebody develops an easy way of accesssing the maps on the Motronics or, as you imply, a significant performance advantage comes from something else. Do you think that one day somebody will create the required acccess or will it remain, in the light of Motec, simply in the too hard and why bother catagory.
10-12-2006, 11:59 AM
#114
Burning Brakes
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BTW, did anybody spot that we have been debating the wrong topic? The thread title is motec UPRADE?
Please can somebody tell me what an uprade is and whether I need one on my car? 
Please can somebody tell me what an uprade is and whether I need one on my car?
10-12-2006, 12:03 PM
#115
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Simon,
I guess the bottom line is that the 964 system is old and a lot of the people who can live map the DME are now battling with the very latest sytems !
Life moves on !!!!!!!!!
All the best
Geoff
I guess the bottom line is that the 964 system is old and a lot of the people who can live map the DME are now battling with the very latest sytems !
Life moves on !!!!!!!!!
All the best
Geoff
10-12-2006, 12:31 PM
#116
Three Wheelin'
Didn't you guys just do a long and painful reiteration of what i said in post #65?
I feel used.
Kirk
p.s. someone owes me a free motec, or I will become bitter.
I feel used.
Kirk
p.s. someone owes me a free motec, or I will become bitter.
10-12-2006, 12:48 PM
#117
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Halleluya. :shakehands: :slapbacks: :have beer:
Well, I suppose I should take solace in that no-one is questioning the fact that a 964RS will make 339bhp with on a Motec ecu with the additional modifications of larger fuel injectors, free flowing air intake and a cat bypass. Maybe one day someone will achieve the same result with a Motronic ecu and thus supply an equivalent conversion for half the price.....
Well, I suppose I should take solace in that no-one is questioning the fact that a 964RS will make 339bhp with on a Motec ecu with the additional modifications of larger fuel injectors, free flowing air intake and a cat bypass. Maybe one day someone will achieve the same result with a Motronic ecu and thus supply an equivalent conversion for half the price.....
10-12-2006, 02:46 PM
#118
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Just to clarify........ I don't agree with some of the comments Loren is making in this thread.
I would be very interested in adapting the SharkTuner for the 964 if there was sufficient demand, but at present I have other 928 developments that are ongoing.
The whole process of developing these tools is extremely time demanding, and my resources are heavily committed.
Maybe "one day" .....
I would be very interested in adapting the SharkTuner for the 964 if there was sufficient demand, but at present I have other 928 developments that are ongoing.
The whole process of developing these tools is extremely time demanding, and my resources are heavily committed.
Maybe "one day" .....
10-12-2006, 03:25 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
... the fact that a 964RS will make 339bhp with on a Motec ecu with the additional modifications of larger fuel injectors, free flowing air intake and a cat bypass...
You originally stated that your heads/cams+Motec will achieve ~360bhp. With your new intake+larger injectors, are we now looking at a combined package that will produce ~389-399hp? Beyond that, when you tackle the exhaust side my calculator may not be sufficient! Do you have plans to market the intake alone?
Noah
10-12-2006, 03:57 PM
#120
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Noah,
I wish it did work out like that but I am sure that you know that it cannot ever be that simple!
To date we have only run the head/cam packages to stock 993 engines which, as we have read in Total 911 and on my posts on the Rennlist 993 forum, have made 350-360bhp on my dyno. I have built one 964 engine for a customer but as yet this car has not been run in anger. The crucial factor with the 964 (as we have discussed privately) is that the performance of the engine is limited by the fueling on Motronic, so my answer would always be to fit Motec first. Given this as a starting point, by adding camshafts and ported 964 heads (the 9m Motec +1 conversion) takes the 964RS engine to just over 350hp, so it should be reasonable to assume that if we substituted the ported 964 heads for the 9m billet items we should comfortably see another 10-15hp, although this may not be true if we stumble into the air delivery limit of the standard plastic intake manifold (as the results from Christer's 3.8 engine implies). The 993VR has the benefit of a larger plenum volume and hence makes 10hp more than the NVR engine with the 9m billet head/cam combination so it is likely we are at end of the envelope of the earlier manifold. Of course with Motec it would be easy to fit the VR system to a 964 engine and use a 2nd auxiliary output to drive the varioram whilst the 1st ran the resonance flap (does Motronic have spare rpm/load outputs, anyone?).
Testing headers on the same 964RS that I used for the Motec tests gave interesting results, in that there were fractional gains at each end of the curve but little to speak of from 5000-6000 where it really matters, however I have no doubt that the result would be different on an engine with cams and heads, but until I build & test an engine to that spec I cannot be 100% sure.
In a nutshell tuning an engine is like chasing the Ace, you always have to look for the next bottleneck in the system and free it up before moving on, so you cannot have a 390hp 3.6 engine just yet .... but watch this space!
I wish it did work out like that but I am sure that you know that it cannot ever be that simple!
To date we have only run the head/cam packages to stock 993 engines which, as we have read in Total 911 and on my posts on the Rennlist 993 forum, have made 350-360bhp on my dyno. I have built one 964 engine for a customer but as yet this car has not been run in anger. The crucial factor with the 964 (as we have discussed privately) is that the performance of the engine is limited by the fueling on Motronic, so my answer would always be to fit Motec first. Given this as a starting point, by adding camshafts and ported 964 heads (the 9m Motec +1 conversion) takes the 964RS engine to just over 350hp, so it should be reasonable to assume that if we substituted the ported 964 heads for the 9m billet items we should comfortably see another 10-15hp, although this may not be true if we stumble into the air delivery limit of the standard plastic intake manifold (as the results from Christer's 3.8 engine implies). The 993VR has the benefit of a larger plenum volume and hence makes 10hp more than the NVR engine with the 9m billet head/cam combination so it is likely we are at end of the envelope of the earlier manifold. Of course with Motec it would be easy to fit the VR system to a 964 engine and use a 2nd auxiliary output to drive the varioram whilst the 1st ran the resonance flap (does Motronic have spare rpm/load outputs, anyone?).
Testing headers on the same 964RS that I used for the Motec tests gave interesting results, in that there were fractional gains at each end of the curve but little to speak of from 5000-6000 where it really matters, however I have no doubt that the result would be different on an engine with cams and heads, but until I build & test an engine to that spec I cannot be 100% sure.
In a nutshell tuning an engine is like chasing the Ace, you always have to look for the next bottleneck in the system and free it up before moving on, so you cannot have a 390hp 3.6 engine just yet .... but watch this space!