Chris M.

Here we go...

c

Lorenfb

"here is a graph of the results which are most relevant to your "points" and I have taken the liberty of adding in another car, in this case Simon's 964RS which runs Motronic and has a Mass Flow converion and (if I remember rightly) a cat bypass pipe, which is the most powerful Motronic 964RS that we have tested to date:"

1. No CAT is "not stock".
2. The results are within +/-5% which occurs for timing tweaks (& dyno run repeatibility) except
for the max curve (~ +10%) but this is a further "not stock" situation because
of the MAF sensor.

"Obviously I cannot confirm what ignition timing the Motronic cars are running, other than they have been mapped by professionals for the same fuel as we are running for the Motec tests,"

And that's a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what's the point here, since all the data deltas results are in the "noise level"?
Hardly any real conclusions can be made!

Again, if Porsche/Bosch considered Motec a real "state-of-the-art" system,
they would open their "petty cash" drawer and buy Motec or the technology.
Yes, the Motronic system on the 964 is over 15 years old, but it can still "take-on"
its challengers and perform VERY competitively for a basic stock (as designed) 964.

"What would the point in replacing a perfectly good Motronic unit and fitting Motec mapped to match the Motronic. That would take a miracle to gain more power. What is the point in the comments above and how do they help the discussion?"

The claim here is that the Motec "IN ITSELF" provides the performance gain versus the "pushed"
tuning of the stock 964 engine.

"Surely the whole point of fitting Motec is to allow you to do things that the standard Motronics doesn't allow."

Like what?????????

kgorman

If I am reading this correctly, test 000 shows about 300hp. That with a remap and a g-pipe. The RS engines are stock 260hp right? If that is true, these results appear to show that a motronic remap is a great bang for the buck. I would like to see prices for 000 and 013.

Colin, I am glad to see we are getting your kit here in the states!

Laurence Gibbs

As far as I understand the issues motec and any other aftermarket ecu package allows the tuner an "easier" path to tuning the vehicle, period(as you Americans would say) . It allows other methods of obtaining reference signals that are easier to implement for the tuner (alpha N etc) . Motronic could produce the same results with less overall funtionality, no logging or external display etc(without modifying motronic). Care would have to be taken when matching new larger injectors with some modification being probable. Overall Motec and other aftermarket systems make life easy for the tuner. they are not performance enhancers on there own. Porsche themselves clearly see the advantage of a more end user freindly ecu as they tend to be fitted to the latest race cars. they clearly don't feel the need to buy the company....yet.
There is absolutely nothing stopping any tuner using motronic ecu's to do similar things that motec can do but most tuners would probably ask themselves, why bother to learn a complcated system (which would probably still require some modifcation)when an easy to understand one exists and works virtually out of the box?

SimonExtreme

[QUOTE=Lorenfb"Surely the whole point of fitting Motec is to allow you to do things that the standard Motronics doesn't allow."

Like what?????????[/QUOTE]I hope this doesn't turn into a engine management system mapping boot camp. I thought you know what you are talking about. Are you telling us that the Motronic DME will do all the same things as the Motec and as easily? Or do you not know what the Motec does?

As for your comments about non standard, this seems to me to be a totally deliberate red herring. Why play those games? If you have the knowledge you display on other posts, then you know that when people like Colin or even myslef refer to "stock", we are primarily refering to the fact that the engine hasn't been opened up, it has the same heads, cams, bores etc. If you want to base an arguement on symatics, I really cannot see it being productive.

What I believe is being offered by Colin is a "kit" that when fitted, means the engine develops a given amount of power. That "kit" might have a few external modifications included with it and it includes a Motec ECU mapped to take advantage.

Surely the situation is simple. For any given amount of $$$$, a tuner offers a given power gain, preferebaly expressed as a % so as not to get into these stupidly unproductive dyno arguements. Preferably, you should see a graph of the package against a known starting point, either (prefreably) a standard car or some other modified car that others understand.

From then on, the customer is in a position to make up their own mind. Are they prepared to pay $X to achieve performance Y.

Also, why pick on the fact that Colin posted the graphs off my car? It formed no part of Colin's claims, other than to show the best he had seen from a car on standard injectors and Motronic DME. It was also posted because I have been very active in these types of debate as I research what to do with my car and on that basis, some here might be interested my starting point.

You further destroy your credibility with such stupid (IMO) comments as Why doesn't Porsche buy lots of companies that make better race gear than what they use on their road cars? Necause its not their business. And why doesn't Bosch buy Motec. Probably because they already make their own versions. Surely the more pertinent question would be "why do most tuners and race teams not use Motronics!"

The simple fact is that Motronics is very fit for purpose. Nobody denies that. But if you want to tune your car past a certain point, Motronics isn't the best solution. Or are you saying it is? If so, please answer the following What level of tune can you get out of Motronics? Can I easily find mappers who can work with it, wherever I end up in the world? What support would I get? How easy will it be to adapt to further modifications?

Christer

Everyone just block Loren if they don't like what he has to say - you will still see the thread but not his comment. Simon and others, its just not worth your time enterting the discussion. Loren has been saying the same for 5 years - I guess he moves with the times?

NineMeister

Loren,
How do you expect to be taken seriously when your only intention seems to be to revisit issues that has been answered in a lot of detail on previous threads? I believe that your inability to accept that there are performance improvements to be had for a 964 from a well constructed tuning package (which in this case includes a Motec ecu) is clouding your judgement to the point that you are now damaging your reputation by trying to put up a smoke screen around my results.

However, because I have nothing to hide and have been pretty open with all my information, why don't I give you an opportunity to re-establish credibility for your abilities? Please answer the following simple questions:

1. Do you/your company have an engine or chassis dyno?
2. Have you ever remapped a 964 Motronic ecu live on this dyno?
3. Have you ever mapped a non-Motronic ecu fitted to a 964 on this dyno?

If the answer to all 3 questions is yes, let's see a copy of your dyno results which prove my own findings wrong. If the answer to any of them is no, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

SimonExtreme

It seems a shame that we are where we are with this and I am sorry if, due to being a bit of a newbie, I have opened up old sores.

So, time to throw a spanner even deeper into the works

Motec isn't the only game in town!!! There are a whole host of mappable ECU's that will do the job to a similar standard. Some are better in some areas than others so it ends up a bit of swings and roundabouts.

I actually don't care which ECU is used. I persoanlly think that Motec is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut but then again, it's also like saying diet pepsi is better than diet Coke (or whatever they are called in your part of the world). As I have commented before, the mapper and the neatness of the installation is a really important factor. I happen to know GEMS ECU's pretty well but to start from scratch and fit one in a Porsche seems pointless because it wouldn't be as neat and it would give me no better results. However, if I was building a grp n rally car, Gems would almost certainly be my unit of choice, even though some would prefer Motec.

The thing about a good mapper is that, within reason, they can map any fully mappable ECU. So, I know that if I take my car to Australia with Colin's Motec conversion and have problems, there are a host of people who can sort it. Or even in the UK, if Colin decides to retire ion the vast amounts he will no doubt make from selling to you totally gullible (like me ) Yanks, I will be able to find a significant number of other mappers to help out, if the need be.

My alternatives to the approach with Colin include a friend who is a Motec and Autronics agent (in Scotland) and another who uses mainly Autronics and is based in SE England. Both are excelent mappers and I might even get change from them. Both are interested in the potential in the market.

However, Colin has a couple of advantages over these guys. Firstly, he has a few "trick bits", such as his intake system and he also has a whole host of data which stops him going down some blind alleys we might otherwise go down.

Not wishing to knock Colin, but he isn't gods gift to all matters tuning. He seems to me to be an honest, hard working and knowledgable tuner who is one of only a veryy few games in town, at the moment. I am sure others will follow and I would be very suprised if Colin won't be forced to up his game further due to competition, assuming the market really is big enough to support more than one.

As mentioned before, I suspect that this is a bit like buying a computer. You put off the decision as to which to buy until you identify what you think is a jump that will last a bit longer than the other ones and then you buy.

Laurence Gibbs

Actually I think Loren could be on to a great business opportunity. If he can get Motronic to be as user friendly and adaptable as the aftermarket ecu, with say some minor mods and do it at a fraction of the cost of upgrading to Motec or any other aftermarket ecu, then he could be on a winner. At the moment unlocking the "potential" of the oem ecu is privvy to a select few who understand the Bosch system and the 8051 esque processor. No doubt this would again lead to mapping on the dyno and another eprom at least, ooops were back to square one again.

JasonAndreas

The market is very, very tiny and 90% of owners would probably damage their engines. Half the remaining 10% would have their mechanics damage their engines. And the rest would call and complain that they aren't seeing any performance improvements when they try to tune on a dynojet in 95F/35C weather.

Aren't there already companies in England that offer dyno-tuning of the 964 M2.1 Motronic? There a lot of maps that you can modify but only four that really matter, basically ignition timing and lambda fuel trim for partial throttle and WOT.

Millemiglia

Thanks for the advice, I wasn't aware that such a function existed!
I follow threads like these with big interest but the constant negative vibes from the likes of Lauren is just plain boring...
Keep going and you could soon be out of business...

SimonExtreme

Laurence

You are spot on. There is a great business opportunity here but I am not clever enough to take advantage and I wonder, when you add in the development costs and everything else, whether Motec wouldn't end up being a cheaper answer anyway!!!

It depends what you want to achieve. The problem I have with my car is that I am at the imits on fueling, so need to run bigger injectors. I woudl then like to map for those bigger injectors and aother mods as well. I also want the ability to change the map easily so I can try different ideas to see what makes a difference. Finally, I would like it to be usable by more than a handful of people. It should be something any experienced mapper can use.

However, if it's not developed and offered in the next week or so, my options are a bit limited

SimonExtreme

How true! That is why my wish list above says it should be able to be used by "experienced mappers".

There are some, but there are limitations and my car seems to have reached those limitations. I think that a little has been lost in all the "Motec Mayhem" about just how well the active remaps can do. Just look at my car. Many owners here in the UK (and I guess elsewhere) want exactly that but there are people like me who believe that their 964RS's are more than capable of handling an extra 30bhp+ (above what I have already). To me, the car is crying out for it. There are so few cars that you can do this to without having to worry about suspension, brakes and who knows what else. And you can do it without effecting the stunning balance and drivability, so long as you can just about modulate your right foot

Laurence Gibbs

Guys, there was more than a bit of tongue in cheek in my post. It's a shame that forum posts don't show irony too well. That said I don't think it's totally beyond the realms of reality. And yes it would be a tiny market for any would be tuner offering it. The Motec route is also a relatively small market. I was not suggesting that such a "kit" would be a diy proposition. But I do think there is room for a well developed motronic derived system, then again I'm not a businessman.
I should add I was not talking of solely remapping motronic but also getting it to run with the larger injectors required when outputs exceed the limits of the standard injectors. I would confess my knowledge of this side of things is limited to Colin, geoffery, Jason and indeed Lorens informed and interesting posts.

Bill Verburg

Could that be made to work on a 55pin M64/21?