Motec upgrade
10-07-2006, 03:03 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
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RWJ
Welcome. Are you a refugee from PCGB forum looking for more data or are you new to this subject. There has been a big discussion of this on the other forum, although IMO, this site is way ahead technically.
Bottom line is that Motec makes no difference on its own. In fact, it's not "plug and play". However, Motec, fitted with the correct components and well mapped, makes a significant difference to an unmpodified engine and is essential on a modified one.
I should just qualify that by saying that for Motec, read fully mappable ECU. There are others but Motec seems the most popular in this market.
Welcome. Are you a refugee from PCGB forum looking for more data or are you new to this subject. There has been a big discussion of this on the other forum, although IMO, this site is way ahead technically.
Bottom line is that Motec makes no difference on its own. In fact, it's not "plug and play". However, Motec, fitted with the correct components and well mapped, makes a significant difference to an unmpodified engine and is essential on a modified one.
I should just qualify that by saying that for Motec, read fully mappable ECU. There are others but Motec seems the most popular in this market.
10-07-2006, 07:31 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
My car is not a fair comparison because there are a number of other upgrades since the engine is basically an upgraded M64/04 RSR engine. Colin Belton from Ninemeister has some data from the cars he has converted which range from stock or near stock to ones with head and cam packages. Do a search here on the 964 forum as well as the 993 forum for username ninemeister and you will find a wealth of information.
I am in the process of acquiring a stock C2 which I'll dyno, then put the US version of the 9M kit on and redyno for a comparison. I hope to have this completed by year end.
I am in the process of acquiring a stock C2 which I'll dyno, then put the US version of the 9M kit on and redyno for a comparison. I hope to have this completed by year end.
10-07-2006, 09:31 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
The C2 will be a daily driver for my wife. So, if she can handle a MoTeC conversion, anyone can. It will remain relatively stock so don't get your hopes up...
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10-07-2006, 09:38 PM
#8
Drifting
Originally Posted by Geoffrey
I am in the process of acquiring a stock C2 which I'll dyno, then put the US version of the 9M kit on and redyno for a comparison. I hope to have this completed by year end.
10-09-2006, 11:09 AM
#10
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Ah, the news is out already. Yes, this is correct, I have appointed Racetek Engineering as US distributor for the 9m Racing 964/964RS Motec package. I have just put together the first system to send across for Geoffrey to fit onto his (lucky) wife's daily driver 964 and hence get the chance to confirm our findings on the benefits of the system.
The price of the fitted & mapped package will be pretty much (exchange rate) comparable to the UK price of £3495 fitted, although we do have to work out option costs which we will explain later. I'll let Geoffrey run through further costs and details later on my behalf, but please be assured that Racetek will have the full backup and support of Ninemeister for the sale of our products.
The price of the fitted & mapped package will be pretty much (exchange rate) comparable to the UK price of £3495 fitted, although we do have to work out option costs which we will explain later. I'll let Geoffrey run through further costs and details later on my behalf, but please be assured that Racetek will have the full backup and support of Ninemeister for the sale of our products.
10-09-2006, 12:16 PM
#12
"Bottom line is that Motec makes no difference on its own. In fact, it's not "plug and play". However, Motec, fitted with the correct components and well mapped, makes a significant difference to an unmpodified engine and is essential on a modified one."
Rather inconsistent statements here:
"Bottom line is that Motec makes no difference on its own."
"However, Motec, fitted with the correct components and well mapped, makes a significant difference to an unmpodified engine"
"Colin, what are the benefits to changing over a US stock 964"
This topic has been discussion over & over again on this forum with the following result:
Motec by itself yields NO IMPROVEMENT on a STOCK 964, i.e. using the same ignition timing
as Porsche/Bosch, and has yet to be demostrated by a rigorous/robust "before & after" test.
So let's not try and promote unproven marketing hype without data!
Rather inconsistent statements here:
"Bottom line is that Motec makes no difference on its own."
"However, Motec, fitted with the correct components and well mapped, makes a significant difference to an unmpodified engine"
"Colin, what are the benefits to changing over a US stock 964"
This topic has been discussion over & over again on this forum with the following result:
Motec by itself yields NO IMPROVEMENT on a STOCK 964, i.e. using the same ignition timing
as Porsche/Bosch, and has yet to be demostrated by a rigorous/robust "before & after" test.
So let's not try and promote unproven marketing hype without data!
10-09-2006, 03:18 PM
#13
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Ah, Loren, welcome back!
You know that I totally respect your undoubted knowledge of all things Motronic abf fully understand your views, but as ever I cannot agree with them. Perhaps in this instance maybe I can persuade you to accept that I have nothing to gain by making false claims without hard facts to back them up, indeed as a qualified engineer the very thought of resorting to "marketing hype" (as you call it) would definitely lead me to seek another carreer path. Maybe you should have read some of my previous posts before stepping up to the mark, because very recently I too doubted the results we were gaining to the point where I just had to prove them (again) to myself - so I did.
The opportunity to do this came about with the permission of one of my customers to do the tests whilst we fitted Motec onto his stock 964RS CS. All the tests I carried out on the same car under carefully controlled conditions with constant engine/air/oil temperatures, tyre pressures and the like, mostly all completed on the same day apart from the "as arrived" test which was done a week or so prior, all corrected to DIN standards and furthermore all completely done at my own expense.
So without the need to get into a heavy debate with you, here is a graph of the results which are most relevant to your "points" and I have taken the liberty of adding in another car, in this case Simon's 964RS which runs Motronic and has a Mass Flow converion and (if I remember rightly) a cat bypass pipe, which is the most powerful Motronic 964RS that we have tested to date:
000 Car as arrived, remapped Motronic with G-pipe
002 Simon's 964RS with Hot Film Motronic & cat bypass - best to date
029 Motec, full standard exhaust with cat, std AFM, paper filter + std lid
023 As 029 with cat bypass + no other changes
013 As 023 but with 9m Motec intake system
Now, irrespective of the overall accuracy of the dyno because all the runs were done on the same dyno under the same conditions, the comparative gains from fitting Motec with a combination of specifications is there to be seen. Obviously I cannot confirm what ignition timing the Motronic cars are running, other than they have been mapped by professionals for the same fuel as we are running for the Motec tests, but I can confirm that with any specification I found no benefit from moving the ignition timing whilst running Motec so all runs used the same ignition table.
I also tested a wide variety of exhaust systems and found interesting results there as well, but I will keep these to myself for now. However, thank you for the opportunity to clarify the truth of the situation, hopefully with acceptable proof in a format that most will understand.
Keep up the good work!
You know that I totally respect your undoubted knowledge of all things Motronic abf fully understand your views, but as ever I cannot agree with them. Perhaps in this instance maybe I can persuade you to accept that I have nothing to gain by making false claims without hard facts to back them up, indeed as a qualified engineer the very thought of resorting to "marketing hype" (as you call it) would definitely lead me to seek another carreer path. Maybe you should have read some of my previous posts before stepping up to the mark, because very recently I too doubted the results we were gaining to the point where I just had to prove them (again) to myself - so I did.
The opportunity to do this came about with the permission of one of my customers to do the tests whilst we fitted Motec onto his stock 964RS CS. All the tests I carried out on the same car under carefully controlled conditions with constant engine/air/oil temperatures, tyre pressures and the like, mostly all completed on the same day apart from the "as arrived" test which was done a week or so prior, all corrected to DIN standards and furthermore all completely done at my own expense.
So without the need to get into a heavy debate with you, here is a graph of the results which are most relevant to your "points" and I have taken the liberty of adding in another car, in this case Simon's 964RS which runs Motronic and has a Mass Flow converion and (if I remember rightly) a cat bypass pipe, which is the most powerful Motronic 964RS that we have tested to date:
000 Car as arrived, remapped Motronic with G-pipe
002 Simon's 964RS with Hot Film Motronic & cat bypass - best to date
029 Motec, full standard exhaust with cat, std AFM, paper filter + std lid
023 As 029 with cat bypass + no other changes
013 As 023 but with 9m Motec intake system
Now, irrespective of the overall accuracy of the dyno because all the runs were done on the same dyno under the same conditions, the comparative gains from fitting Motec with a combination of specifications is there to be seen. Obviously I cannot confirm what ignition timing the Motronic cars are running, other than they have been mapped by professionals for the same fuel as we are running for the Motec tests, but I can confirm that with any specification I found no benefit from moving the ignition timing whilst running Motec so all runs used the same ignition table.
I also tested a wide variety of exhaust systems and found interesting results there as well, but I will keep these to myself for now. However, thank you for the opportunity to clarify the truth of the situation, hopefully with acceptable proof in a format that most will understand.
Keep up the good work!
10-09-2006, 07:36 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
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For what it's worth, I cannot claim any credit for my engine, other than having the sense to buy the car. I believe the good results are down to a number of factors. For instance, despite 60k miles, it leak tests like a new car. I was also lucky that the PO had more money than sense so spent a lot on mods that I now believe add only a little bit of power. In effect I think he probably paid about $1500 to get 3-4bhp more than others! Lucky me.
So where next? The answer seems to be posted above. I have now heard enough testiment, seen enough cars to be convinced. And to be perfecctly truthful, I don't actually think that Colin is that much of a miracle worker. Let me explain.
I hope nobody takes offence (I am sure somebody will) but for some reason, compared with many makes, the choice of tuning is suprisingly disappointing. OK, with turbo cars every man and his dog thinks they are a tuner because they know how to turn up boost but with NA Porsches, people seem not to spend the time and effort in extracting the mosy from the cars.
I personally think that it is because it is a developing m,arket. Cars like the 964 and in particular, the 64RS were, IMO, misuderstood and underestimated. Because Porsche finally spent so much time in dialing out the wild oversteer and creating a car that understeered its way into the driving capabilities of the masses, this seemed to be enough.
What people managed to miss was that with a little work or by going straight for an RS, you could end up with one of the finest handling cars Porsche have made. The later aircooled cars are that bit special and now people are really appreciating it.
Colin is one of the first to really look at the issues and move things forward yet people are suprised that he can find so much power. Well, to me the problem I have had has been that he hadn't found enough power! A year ago, when I first talked to him, his website still talked about supercharging or 322-325bhp from Motec. He had most of the answers but there were areas we discussed that I didn't think quite hung together. Don't misunderstand. I believed his figures but why would I spend £3500+ for another 15bhp, particularly as I had a feeling that theer was more to come.
So, now Colin is getting some pretty good figures and I am excited, enough to be about to do soemthing (if my little plan comes together). However, I will predict that in 18 months time Colin will have found another 10 bhp on top. But its a bit like computers. No soon as you buy one and its out of date!! As the market gets bigger, I bet there will be more custom stuff developed by the likes of Colin, at prices that are affordable.
As the chinese proverb says "May you live in interesting times" and when it comes to tuning NA porsches, I think we do.
So where next? The answer seems to be posted above. I have now heard enough testiment, seen enough cars to be convinced. And to be perfecctly truthful, I don't actually think that Colin is that much of a miracle worker. Let me explain.
I hope nobody takes offence (I am sure somebody will) but for some reason, compared with many makes, the choice of tuning is suprisingly disappointing. OK, with turbo cars every man and his dog thinks they are a tuner because they know how to turn up boost but with NA Porsches, people seem not to spend the time and effort in extracting the mosy from the cars.
I personally think that it is because it is a developing m,arket. Cars like the 964 and in particular, the 64RS were, IMO, misuderstood and underestimated. Because Porsche finally spent so much time in dialing out the wild oversteer and creating a car that understeered its way into the driving capabilities of the masses, this seemed to be enough.
What people managed to miss was that with a little work or by going straight for an RS, you could end up with one of the finest handling cars Porsche have made. The later aircooled cars are that bit special and now people are really appreciating it.
Colin is one of the first to really look at the issues and move things forward yet people are suprised that he can find so much power. Well, to me the problem I have had has been that he hadn't found enough power! A year ago, when I first talked to him, his website still talked about supercharging or 322-325bhp from Motec. He had most of the answers but there were areas we discussed that I didn't think quite hung together. Don't misunderstand. I believed his figures but why would I spend £3500+ for another 15bhp, particularly as I had a feeling that theer was more to come.
So, now Colin is getting some pretty good figures and I am excited, enough to be about to do soemthing (if my little plan comes together). However, I will predict that in 18 months time Colin will have found another 10 bhp on top. But its a bit like computers. No soon as you buy one and its out of date!! As the market gets bigger, I bet there will be more custom stuff developed by the likes of Colin, at prices that are affordable.
As the chinese proverb says "May you live in interesting times" and when it comes to tuning NA porsches, I think we do.
10-09-2006, 08:01 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb
This topic has been discussion over & over again on this forum with the following result:
Motec by itself yields NO IMPROVEMENT on a STOCK 964, i.e. using the same ignition timing
as Porsche/Bosch, and has yet to be demostrated by a rigorous/robust "before & after" test.
So let's not try and promote unproven marketing hype without data!
Motec by itself yields NO IMPROVEMENT on a STOCK 964, i.e. using the same ignition timing
as Porsche/Bosch, and has yet to be demostrated by a rigorous/robust "before & after" test.
So let's not try and promote unproven marketing hype without data!
Now, you are either saying that you can do the same things with the Motronic, or that the changes made using Motec make no difference or, because you haven't seen it with your own eyes, you don't believe it.
I personally would urge caution with your reply. I have no interest in Colin's business and have only done the research into his stuff as a potential customer. I might be prepared to accept that you can achieve the same using Motronics if you can show me the same before and after figures, in my presence or somebody who I trust. Or you could accuse Colin of faking the results and me being a flunky suckered in because I don't know what I am talking about...............