Tom W

While I appreciate that some folk have views about MoTeC and if it is "better" than Motronic, I'd suggest that for most folk like me, it's a moot point.

Most of us have our cars "enhanced" by a shop we know and trust. This is the likely factor to most influence a Mortonic or MoTeC decision (IMO). There appear to be very few shops that can actually program a Motronic for a specific car while it's on a dyno (or the engine is on an engine dyno). Many shops have the capability to do full maps for a MoTeC.

So, as the customer and confronted with the decision to take an off-the-shelf chip for the Motronic or have the shop do a complete MoTeC map for my engine and the exhaust I normally plan to run (and create a seperate map to load when I need to run a different setup for Laguna Seca and it's 90 or 92 db limit), it was a no-brainer and I went MoTeC.

It also appears that MoTeC has a much higher level of support for data acquisition systems.

SimonExtreme

I hope that Colin won't mind but let me put some real figures on the page.....

My car run on Motronics as far as we can push it on standard injectors 309bhp
Car with standard AFM and a live remap of Motronics 301bhp
Car with Motec mapped by 9M, 9M intake and decat 339bhp
(figures extrapolated based on blow up of graph and copy of own graph)

Yes, it would have been good to see a base car with no mods but they are rare in the UK because most people have done something to their RS's. However, I would expect a standard car to make about 270bhp on Colin's dyno, although I bet the man himself could tell us.

However, that is totally irrelevent. You have 2 relevent cars to base your "doubts" on. If we were to be as ludicrous to say that the lower powered Motronics car actually produced no more power than standard, we are looking at a 15% power hike. If you accept that a base car would have made 270bhp, then it is a 27% increase. Are those figures just "noise"? If they are, then I hope nobody uses your services because if you are prepared for that amount of noise, then who knows what you would get back (Fun comment. No inference about you or your company intended)

On top of that, you can see from the graphs the shape of the curves. However, for all you doubters, I must remind Colin that if he is going to fake graphs like that, he must do it before a night out so he can draw the lines with less squiggles

Christer

Simon - what would your car be able to produce with Motronic and larger injectors as well as the 9M intake?

I think again its time to turn down the 'passion' a notch and just get on with things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I would just feel a little more comfortable if you didn't go to such great lengths to defend 9M - it does come across a little bit 'wrong'. Now I know that is down to your passion and interest here and not because you have been brainwashed - but I would just reiterate that 9M are more than capable of defending themselves and know what they are talking about.

I seem to remember one recent thread where from memory you were happy to assume a catbypass alone would gain 14rwhp (or was it fwhp) on a stock car and I just think that sometimes...more is less.......so relax....Colin has succeeded without your help so far

N51

Now that Tom W. has weighed in, there are three factions here - those who are looking to optimize for track, those who want street & track, and those who want increased performance for the street, only. I'm of the latter, so I'll address my thoughts concerning Motec with this in mind.

"The C2 will be a daily driver for my wife. So, if she can handle a MoTeC conversion, anyone can." - Geoffrey

Geoffrey,
We've had this discussion in private and I state, openly, that your wife having and driving a Motec conversion is not a true test of the daily "liveability" with Motec. Her expert is, literally, "in house". You, my expert, are ~1000 miles distant. Your statement, "...anyone can.", falls flat for my use. This is not doubting your abilities, but seeing it in light of my own needs.

Colin,
I appreciate the graphs you've presented, but do not believe they tell all the story. Some variables have been pointed out by others and there is at least one other - the re-mapped Motronics. Who did the work? What is their level of competence? It's not nitpicking. Many years spent in a lab has shown me how variables - known and unknown - can skew the results. It is most difficult for me to accept, as you seem to imply, that a properly mapped Motec engine can find more power than a properly mapped Motronics ignition. I'm willing to listen and believe, but the data, thus far, does not prove it out.

Noah

JasonAndreas

When are you hoping to start tuning this? Will you be using the stock AFM, Bosch MAF or TPS+MAP? What brand of eprom emulator do you own, if any?

Geoffrey

"We've had this discussion in private and I state, openly, that your wife having and driving a Motec conversion is not a true test of the daily "liveability" with Motec. Her expert is, literally, "in house". You, my expert, are ~1000 miles distant. Your statement, "...anyone can.", falls flat for my use. This is not doubting your abilities, but seeing it in light of my own needs."

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Once the programming has been completed, there should be no need to change the programming unless an engine component has been changed.

"When are you hoping to start tuning this?"
As soon as I find a suitable C2 and buy it. I'm looking at several now. Prefer 92 and newer. Alternatively I'll use a stock 93 RS America from a friend.

It will be the 9M MoTeC kit configured for the US market meaning that it will have a MoTeC USA ECU and the 9M hardware components. It is effectively the same kit used in England and priced similarly using current currency conversion rates. Base programming will be based on the 9M programming but tuned for 93 octane fuel although programs for other fuel types can be developed. It will be TPS+MAP and the AFM and airbox will be returned to the owner in a box along with the car.

Do not misunderstand, base programming is just that, base programming. Car A with exhaust will run differently than Car B with no exhaust, etc. Minor changes from base programming will be required to extract maximum performance from each engine. This is no different than reprogramming a Motronic system for maximum performance on a given engine combination.

SimonExtreme

Christer

Firstly, if you could tell me how to power the larger injectors with the Motronics, a question |I have been asking in here for some time, I might be able to tell you. Secondly, I am not sure whether Colin would sell me a 9M intake on its own.

Finally, I don't think I have been defending Colin as such but the use of Motec or as I have stated elsewhere on this very thread, any mappable ECU. I have been looking for others to do the same thing and have even considered doing it myself. I haven't promoted colin as such, just verified his data as being genuine in the same way as I would ahve said it wasn't if that had been the case.

And why am I not rushing ahead and getting it done? Because the chances are that in the next week it will be confirmed I am moving to Australia and if I do, I will take the car after Colin has fitted the Motec. If I time it right, I will save 17.5% VAT (tax). Now, would you rush into it under those circumstances!

In addition, I wanted to be comfortable that when I get to Oz, I can find somebody to support the car. There was also the option of getting it all done there. As I have posted, in general, Colin isn't the only person who can do this stuff and I have been more careful than most in making my choice. Are you suggesting that as I haven't had the work done to my own car I am not in a position to comment? It seems that a lot of people on here want more info and one or 2 are pouring doubt on claims etc. I am in a position to verify the claims. Are you saying I shouldn't.

For what it's worth, there is a tuner in the UK who if they posted claims on here, I would post evidence that their claims were fake and that they fiddled the results. Would you suggest that as it didn't happen to my car (all i did was help get verification of what had happened) I should not post.

maybe I will never get Motec fitted but does that inavlidate the knowledge I have gained?

Anyway, enough bickering. I hope your car is running well again

Geoffrey

Simon, MoTeC is based in Austrailia so I don't think you'll have any issues getting someone to help you there. The 964 engine in street form is an easy engine to map compared to many others out there.

JasonAndreas

I'm just trying to figure what in terms of software I would need to get to you to try Colin's hardware with a motronic box. The MY92+ ECU already supports MAP but the table would need to be expanded from 3x1 to whatever. The fuel injector constants are two fixed 8:8 integers. So that leaves the AFM table and the default values used for diagnostics and errors that would need to be changed for TPS. And that's assuming you're not using the Motec 4D maps. There are 6 partial throttle ignition maps and 3 fuel maps (but space for a whole lot more) that could do something similar.

N51

"Once the programming has been completed, there should be no need to change the programming unless an engine component has been changed."

Geoffrey,
Has this been Christer's experience? Hasn't he had his engine re-mapped since the original conversion? Hopefully - surely :-) - he'll offer his thoughts.

Noah

SimonExtreme

I cannot comment on who mapped the other Motronics car but I can tell you about mine. The work was a mix of AMD (chip and hot film) and Autofarm (filter, zorst, intake mods). Has it been done well? As Colin points out, he hasn't seen a Motronics 964 RS producing more power and having had it on 3 other rolling roads, all agree. I was lucky when I bought the car as all this work had been done already, although I did know the spec and had seen a graph before I bought it, I can truthfully say I haven't seen another motronics 964 RS make more power. Lucky me!!

Now, almost every 964RS in the UK has been modified in some way or another. The car has, when I have been driving properly, proven itself to be quick on track and during other tests. So, overall, by adding my car to his graphs, I would say that Colin is really standing up to be counted as he couldn't have found a higher powered motronics driven 964RS in the UK.

SimonExtreme

Thanks, Geoffrey, I knew that but the problem I had was that most of the Porsche specialsists are Melbourne based. As it happens, what I also wanted to find out was if there was a better tax advantage doing it there! Ultimately, if I need to, I can support it myself with a lttle help from the other side of the world. Maps can be emailed and telephones are an amazing modern invention!!!!

Christer

I have not had the car remapped for any other reason than curiosity on my part. Also, as my car was converted a couple of years ago now - there sometimes is something that Colin wants to try or maybe knowledge that he has gained since the last time I was in so we stick it on the RR and do some 'tweaking'. Whether this is necessary as such - I have no idea!

zimpwh

What an excellent debate. Colin, Geoffrey I cannot wait to see you in the Spring for my Motec Install.

Christer

No bickering here, just let me say it one more time: less is more.

Also, stating after the fact that you haven't really defended and so on when you have does not take away the fact that you have Its a bit like when somebody says ' I am not being rude, but....' and then come out with all kinds of stuff. The fact that one says 'I am not being rude' doesn't mean that whatever you say after that will not be rude...you sort of seem to have it in reverse. I am just saying that to me it detracts from your credibility in some small way - and I don't like to feel that way when I assume that your posts are driven by no small amount of enthusiasm. You don't have to fight every fight - especially someone elses!

The car is being looked at by some 'expert' at the Aarhus Porsche Centre