SimonExtreme

Laurence

I am totally with you on this and have spent a year trying to work out how to do it!! The "classic" route to this sort of tuning is what I call the "Japanese" style, where they effectively bolt on boxes to either take over certain areas that cannot be handled by the OEM ECU or where a Piggy Back unit is created which fools the OEM ECU into making the whole thing work.

Excuse the technical dyslexia, but a piggy back unit usually reprocesses the incoming information into a form that the OEM ECU can then use and/or changes the outputs from the OEM system so as to achieve the desired effect.

My understanding is that the "hot film" conversions involves a little device which converts the outputs from the MAF into what appears to the DME as AFM data.

I have been suprised that there is so little going on in the Porsche market. In the Japanese tuning market, there are lots of companies doing it and I don't see the market being any bigger. For instance, I think you will find that the Mitsubishi Evo market is smaller than the Porsche one, globally, yet the choice of tuners and devices is mindblowing.

This must be down to the type of people who drive the cars. After all, we clearly aren't members of the "Fast and Furious" fan club (nore are all of the Evo owners, for that matter).

The biggest challenge is where do you stop playing through the DME and go for a fully mappable ECU. This is never as easy as it seems and is at the heart of the debate on how to tune Evo's (ignoring that they are turbo's). The issue is that, in theory, you can fool an oem ECU as much as you want and everything runs OK, everything is fine. However, if one part fails, the knock on effect can be catastrophic. There are certainly more Evo engine failures due to problems with add ons than with going for fully programmable ECU's, such as Motec, GEMS, Autronics etc.

To me, the issue is that the tuning "menu" is rather wide spread. As you increase power, each extra bhp costs more per bhp than the last. I am guessing a bit but it seems that you currently have

1. +20bhp @ £750 ($1375) £37.5 per bhp
2 +32bhp @ £1250 ($2315) £39 per bhp
3. +40 bhp @ £1875 ($3470) £46.75 per bhp
4. + 80bhp @ £4000 ($7400) £50 per bhp

Now, the above is purely a guestimate but it paints a picture. What is ahrder is that it isn't very liniar. I will be paying £4000 to actually gain 40bhp and I hope that the old kit I can sell for a lttle to help offset the cost.

I hate this lust for power. Why did anybody invent the car or, at least, the performance car.

Geoffrey

"The market is very, very tiny and 90% of owners would probably damage their engines. Half the remaining 10% would have their mechanics damage their engines. And the rest would call and complain that they aren't seeing any performance improvements when they try to tune on a dynojet in 95F/35C weather. "

That is so true its funny...

Having done a fair amount of EVOs, they have cooling hot spots that require the engine to be run unusually rich to keept it cool enough to prevent melting piston #4. The engines that are popping are usually caused by a tuner who does not recognize this issue.

Lorenfb

"Preferably, you should see a graph of the package against a known starting point, either (prefreably) a standard car or some other modified car that others understand."

Right! So where is it? Let's have some data and proof. As I said before, the data presented on
this thread indicate NOTHING.

"The market is very, very tiny and 90% of owners would probably damage their engines. Half the remaining 10% would have their mechanics damage their engines. And the rest would call and complain that they aren't seeing any performance improvements when they try to tune on a dynojet in 95F/35C weather."

Jason stated it well!

Geoffrey

"Right! So where is it? Let's have some data and proof. As I said before, the data presented on this thread indicates NOTHING."

Are you not reading this thread?

The graphs presented by Colin are from a M64/03 engine which is essentially the best M64/01 engine from Porsche. The two engines are the same with the M64/03 engine having hand selected parts which are better matched for balancing than a standard M64/01 engine. Other than the ECU programming, the parts are the same.

The base as presented is the best mechanically matched M64/01 engine (called a M64/03) and a Motronic ECU which has been mapped for optimization, the same as MoTeC would be mapped for optimization. A stock engine with stock ECU would be LESS than this base.

I doubt that a person with a 100% stock engine will buy a $6500 MoTeC ECU kit as the first modification. The people who are looking for an increase in power and willing to invest $6500 in a replacement ECU will have most likely already done some or all of the bolt on modifications like LWF, chip, exhaust, K&N, drilled airbox, etc. Comparsion of a stock engine with stock ECU to a stock engine with MoTeC is of little use. However, it is my intention to do this test anyway.

So, lets ask this question, what do you guys think is a fair comparison?

RWJ

I thought it was a simple question

Lorenfb

"The base as presented is the best mechanically matched M64/01 engine (called a M64/03) and a Motronic ECU which has been mapped for optimization, the same as MoTeC would be mapped for optimization. A stock engine with stock ECU would be LESS than this base."

AGAIN, where're the comparative data, graphs, whatever, that indicate a real benefit?????????
All I "see" are graphs which indicate NOTHING and SUBJECTIVE statements!

What's needed is the THOROUGH dyno test of a stock 964 running properly
and then the SAME car with a Motec system tuned to the same maps again
on the same dyno. Now that's a simple and straight-forward test, isn't it?

Come on guys. This is Rennlist and NOT like the other Mickey Mouse Porsche forums.

Geoffrey

Loren,

Run 000 and 029 are exactly that.

What do you consider a thorough dyno test?

SimonExtreme

Loren

I am beginning to wonder if you are working to some agenda, or have a lack of understanding or whether the rest of us are stupid.

I can see a graph. It has lines on it and there are discriptions of the cars that the lines represent. There is a scale. While I would agree with you that you might not be able to get absolutely accurate data off what has been posted (I cannot tell you exactly how much more power one car has over another at any given rpm), I can clearly see an order of magnitude. If you want to see it more accurately, why not do what I did which is to save it and then enlarge it. Doesn't change the data, but might make it easier for you.

Now, as you rightly say, this is Rennlist so please can you explain why the graph above doesn't give us an idea of the power gains?

Lorenfb

"Run 000 and 029 are exactly that."

It's just a 4% difference & that's the max. Other points show less difference.
It's not significant, in the "noise level", by engineering standards and doesn't
justify a cost/benefit buy decision. Like all the other graphs (insignificant differences).
Hardly anything to "write home about"!

Geoffrey

Its actually more than 4% since the MoTeC run was using the AFM and paper filter which is discarded in a normal installation, and the Base run did not have the secondary muffler which by itself is worth 8rwhp that I've measured. And run 000 is with a live remapped ECU, not a stock or Cup chip ECU.

wsybert

I struggle a little on the camparison myself. I know Geoffrey has done everything to keep the conditions the same, but the cars are different. With and without cats, different muffler arrangements, etc...
To me the tests would look like this...
* Standard car with Motronic (untouched)
* Same car with Motec tuned to factory specifications. (My guess is there is no benifit to this since it would be doing largely the same thing as a stock car. And what would be the point of spending all of the money to keep a stock configuration. But this is a test...)
* Same car with Motec (optimized)
* Same car with Motronics (optimized)

Am I missing something???

NineMeister

Probably.

When the car originally came in for the upgrade it already had a modified ecu and at the time it never occured to me to perform these tests. That said there would be little point in testing another car and posting the result on the graph since the whole idea of the test was to use the same car on the same day in as many configurations as possible, although Simon's 964RS run was shown simply because it represented the best dyno result that I have seen for a Motronic equipped car with standard injectors.

So, if you want to know what power the 9m Motec conversion adds, simply compare the two runs with the maximum and minimum power - the peak figures were approx 339bhp & 301bhp respectively.

wsybert

Understood.
I was thinking along the lines of a standard car vs Motec and optimized. I thought maybe that was the original question.

Geoffrey

I take no credit for the tests, they were done by Colin at his shop with his extensive expertise

wsybert

My apologies Colin / Geoffrey... all of this reading and trying to get work done... looked at the wrong post.