ProMAX Chip and Maf unit
03-21-2006, 05:38 PM
#121
Racer
Hi All,
This was a message received from Dan Tidwell, who will no doubt post his findings here directly...
"The car is definitely more smooth, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with your web site comments. By the way, did you see the story in this month's Excellence? It has a great write up on a chip install."
Thanks Dan, hope that's OK to post that :-)
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
This was a message received from Dan Tidwell, who will no doubt post his findings here directly...
"The car is definitely more smooth, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with your web site comments. By the way, did you see the story in this month's Excellence? It has a great write up on a chip install."
Thanks Dan, hope that's OK to post that :-)
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
03-22-2006, 01:18 PM
#122
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MAF - it worked for me
Converted my 911CS in 88 or 89 with a Autothority Kit. Car hat headers and free flow exhaust, larger throttle body, no fine tuning.
Never done before and after dyno, I just believed in it (engine ->air pump).
After I sold the car, the owner had it on a dyno =259hp.
964 were converted with a kit from a German Tuner.
Had it on a dyno and had 300hp, I was happy and did some more mods over the years w/o remapping : Splitfire plugs and other multiple fire plugs, K&N cone, headers, dual exhaust muffler, even bigger K&N's with knee element
larger throttle body.
Then, in 2002 I found a metal piece during oil change. It turned out to be a broken valve spring ( common failure).
During rebuild they found a cylinder that ran lean and the piston hat touched the head already.
Although I had a meter that shows the mixture I don't know what caused this,
but I thing the DME could not cope with some mods, beware.
However, after the 3.8l rebuild and with a 993MAF "pauline" has more than 320hp. Maybe there is more in it?
Found pictures of the massaged throttle body.
Never done before and after dyno, I just believed in it (engine ->air pump).
After I sold the car, the owner had it on a dyno =259hp.
964 were converted with a kit from a German Tuner.
Had it on a dyno and had 300hp, I was happy and did some more mods over the years w/o remapping : Splitfire plugs and other multiple fire plugs, K&N cone, headers, dual exhaust muffler, even bigger K&N's with knee element
larger throttle body.
Then, in 2002 I found a metal piece during oil change. It turned out to be a broken valve spring ( common failure).
During rebuild they found a cylinder that ran lean and the piston hat touched the head already.
Although I had a meter that shows the mixture I don't know what caused this,
but I thing the DME could not cope with some mods, beware.
However, after the 3.8l rebuild and with a 993MAF "pauline" has more than 320hp. Maybe there is more in it?
Found pictures of the massaged throttle body.
03-29-2006, 01:59 AM
#123
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
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ProMax Installed
Hello from Portland, Oregon USA. It's been a wet winter here and we have had only a few dry days this year. I recieved Andrew's chip and have had time to install and put in some time on the road.
The car is definitely more smooth on FT acceleration, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with ProMax's web site comments. My G-Meter showed 0.56g max in 1st gear, now shows 0.65g with the new chip. A 16% increase in torque is enough to notice.
A few notes on installation. The ProMax one page instructions were not much help. I think Andrew will get around to improving that.
* I'd just tell people to remove the seat. It's easier than trying to get to the bolts holding the case, and you need to clean under there anyhow. Grease the seat guides and tighten all the screws. I applied leather cleaner and Hide Food all around while I had the seat(s) out. Found a nice pair of PO RayBans too!
* An anti-static wrist strap should be required, not optional. They are cheap and available at Fry's. A dry day in LA will kill that chip.
* The documentation should be updated to include pictures showing the way to get the top board in the ECM to release. This was not easy until I figured out what holds it all together. Took about 30 minutes that could have been easy with a few more photos.
* Be aware that the chip MUST be aligned correctly. This is an easy one to get wrong. Notches are mentioned in the documentation but you can't actually see the notches in the ProMax photos.
* Don't forget that removing the ECU will require a run of about 15 minutes to "re-learn" it's baseline. In other words, testing the chip immediately after install may not give expected results.
* Go look around the ProMax website. It has lots of detailed dyno data. www.promaxmotorsport.com
* Put the original chip in the foam, back in the ECU case. It will fit in the space around the edge. Porsche will ask $$$ for a new one and the NO will thank you.
* At less than $200 it's a no brainer. I'm thinking this is a reasonably affordable way to FEEL like the car is a bit stronger.
Regards, Danz
The car is definitely more smooth on FT acceleration, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with ProMax's web site comments. My G-Meter showed 0.56g max in 1st gear, now shows 0.65g with the new chip. A 16% increase in torque is enough to notice.
A few notes on installation. The ProMax one page instructions were not much help. I think Andrew will get around to improving that.
* I'd just tell people to remove the seat. It's easier than trying to get to the bolts holding the case, and you need to clean under there anyhow. Grease the seat guides and tighten all the screws. I applied leather cleaner and Hide Food all around while I had the seat(s) out. Found a nice pair of PO RayBans too!
* An anti-static wrist strap should be required, not optional. They are cheap and available at Fry's. A dry day in LA will kill that chip.
* The documentation should be updated to include pictures showing the way to get the top board in the ECM to release. This was not easy until I figured out what holds it all together. Took about 30 minutes that could have been easy with a few more photos.
* Be aware that the chip MUST be aligned correctly. This is an easy one to get wrong. Notches are mentioned in the documentation but you can't actually see the notches in the ProMax photos.
* Don't forget that removing the ECU will require a run of about 15 minutes to "re-learn" it's baseline. In other words, testing the chip immediately after install may not give expected results.
* Go look around the ProMax website. It has lots of detailed dyno data. www.promaxmotorsport.com
* Put the original chip in the foam, back in the ECU case. It will fit in the space around the edge. Porsche will ask $$$ for a new one and the NO will thank you.
* At less than $200 it's a no brainer. I'm thinking this is a reasonably affordable way to FEEL like the car is a bit stronger.
Regards, Danz
03-29-2006, 12:52 PM
#124
"My G-Meter showed 0.56g max in 1st gear, now shows 0.65g with the new chip. A 16% increase in torque is enough to notice."
That's great, but now you'll need to do a real test on a dyno (before & after),
thus eliminating many potential errors when using the "G-Meter". Also, you
need to indicate what grade of fuel was used and whether you checked for
pinging under heavy loads, e.g. climbing a hill in hot weather.
That's great, but now you'll need to do a real test on a dyno (before & after),
thus eliminating many potential errors when using the "G-Meter". Also, you
need to indicate what grade of fuel was used and whether you checked for
pinging under heavy loads, e.g. climbing a hill in hot weather.
03-30-2006, 05:49 AM
#125
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I think that Mark's comments are most appropriate - as long as a chip gives a cleaner feel to the divability of the car and is not marketed to give over hyped expectations - we should look at a chip as being a small piece of fine tuning.
As long as the data base of the work is detailed enough to be accurate.
I still have not got mine in !!!!!!!
Its in the workshop 100 miles away and life has been taken over by consecutive weeks of Influenza B hitting my 5 year old my 8 year old and my wife - that means some one has been in bed for a minimum of a week - my wife = 2 weeks.
Chips became low priority - its now the end of term and all things being equal I am off for a boys week ( with the 8 year old!) to Chaminix - the snow is late a good - I hope it lasts til next week.
Flying not driving.
So my own account of the chip experience is another two weeks away
( I must admit I needed a rest from my boring ECU experience )
But keep the experiences coming - certainly the Euro butt approach as compared to the US numbers approach for a road car makes sense to me - things like the LW flywheel and the Drilled Air Box make a fresh engine feel dramatically better - I only go by seat of the pants experience but after 16 years in the same 964 and 3 engines my butt is particularly sensative so I do want to check the chip and find out the RBW Butt Meter Measurement - the RBWBMM - sound technical and expensive
As long as the data base of the work is detailed enough to be accurate.
I still have not got mine in !!!!!!!
Its in the workshop 100 miles away and life has been taken over by consecutive weeks of Influenza B hitting my 5 year old my 8 year old and my wife - that means some one has been in bed for a minimum of a week - my wife = 2 weeks.
Chips became low priority - its now the end of term and all things being equal I am off for a boys week ( with the 8 year old!) to Chaminix - the snow is late a good - I hope it lasts til next week.
Flying not driving.
So my own account of the chip experience is another two weeks away
( I must admit I needed a rest from my boring ECU experience )
But keep the experiences coming - certainly the Euro butt approach as compared to the US numbers approach for a road car makes sense to me - things like the LW flywheel and the Drilled Air Box make a fresh engine feel dramatically better - I only go by seat of the pants experience but after 16 years in the same 964 and 3 engines my butt is particularly sensative so I do want to check the chip and find out the RBW Butt Meter Measurement - the RBWBMM - sound technical and expensive
03-30-2006, 11:58 AM
#126
"as long as a chip gives a cleaner feel to the divability of the car and is not marketed to give over hyped expectations"
Remember, anytime the ignition timing is advanced over the stock setting on
any engine, e.g. V.W. bug, 911SC, or a 964, there will always be an improved
feeling of a performance gain. The real issue relates to "real" overall performance
in all driving conditions, i.e. heavy engine loads, temperatures, and with standard
fuel grades.
Remember, anytime the ignition timing is advanced over the stock setting on
any engine, e.g. V.W. bug, 911SC, or a 964, there will always be an improved
feeling of a performance gain. The real issue relates to "real" overall performance
in all driving conditions, i.e. heavy engine loads, temperatures, and with standard
fuel grades.
03-30-2006, 03:12 PM
#127
Originally Posted by Lorenfb
"as long as a chip gives a cleaner feel to the divability of the car and is not marketed to give over hyped expectations"
Remember, anytime the ignition timing is advanced over the stock setting on
any engine, e.g. V.W. bug, 911SC, or a 964, there will always be an improved
feeling of a performance gain. The real issue relates to "real" overall performance
in all driving conditions, i.e. heavy engine loads, temperatures, and with standard
fuel grades.
Remember, anytime the ignition timing is advanced over the stock setting on
any engine, e.g. V.W. bug, 911SC, or a 964, there will always be an improved
feeling of a performance gain. The real issue relates to "real" overall performance
in all driving conditions, i.e. heavy engine loads, temperatures, and with standard
fuel grades.
To be fair I had a chip upgrade in my 90 C2 along with exhaust and air filter. It felt smooth but the bottom line was at the end of the straightaway at say Las Veags or Laguna Seca or even Willow Springs, I had a 3-4 mile increase in top speed. It didn'tfeel all that powerful but the results were there. Or maybe I'd improved everytime I was on track. A dyno is the best way to quantify the gains.
03-30-2006, 03:54 PM
#128
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Why is standard fuel grade important ?
- I run my car on the slightly higher grades here in the UK - having fallen for the hype of cleaner fuel and its beneficial properties for the engine.
Is it a fair assumption that a chip designed with this in mind - plus the other little changes to exaust and air filter will show a better actual and perceived performance on the road?
- I run my car on the slightly higher grades here in the UK - having fallen for the hype of cleaner fuel and its beneficial properties for the engine.
Is it a fair assumption that a chip designed with this in mind - plus the other little changes to exaust and air filter will show a better actual and perceived performance on the road?
03-30-2006, 05:48 PM
#129
"Why is standard fuel grade important ?"
Because many don't have options other than standard (non-race) fuels.
"Is it a fair assumption that a chip designed with this in mind - plus the other little changes to exaust and air filter will show a better actual and perceived performance on the road?"
Assumptions are O.K., but bottom line test results bring reality to the issue.
*
Because many don't have options other than standard (non-race) fuels.
"Is it a fair assumption that a chip designed with this in mind - plus the other little changes to exaust and air filter will show a better actual and perceived performance on the road?"
Assumptions are O.K., but bottom line test results bring reality to the issue.
*
04-01-2006, 12:57 PM
#130
Racer
Originally Posted by Danz C4
...
The car is definitely more smooth on FT acceleration, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with ProMax's web site comments. My G-Meter showed 0.56g max in 1st gear, now shows 0.65g with the new chip. A 16% increase in torque is enough to notice.
A few notes on installation. The ProMax one page instructions were not much help. I think Andrew will get around to improving that. ....
The car is definitely more smooth on FT acceleration, seems stronger from 3,000 to about 6,500 rpm, and is easier to start. The rev limiter seems to kick in at about 6,700. All of this is consistent with ProMax's web site comments. My G-Meter showed 0.56g max in 1st gear, now shows 0.65g with the new chip. A 16% increase in torque is enough to notice.
A few notes on installation. The ProMax one page instructions were not much help. I think Andrew will get around to improving that. ....
Thanks for the observations. I will incorporate the suggestions into new instructions which are currently being written.
ProMAX Motorsport Limited Offer to 05/31/2006
All,
We will offer this chip to Rennlist members at a specially discounted price of just $175.00 USD (USA/Canada only) until May 31st 2006. Other countries, please get in touch as shipping costs are different.
The chip will be offered with a 30 day money back warranty, full fitting instrcutions and the price includes delivery to USA/Canada.
To order - just send a PayPal for $175.00 to andrew@promaxmotorsport.com and include the words 'Rennlist 964 Chip Offer' as the subject. Your ProMAX Performance chip will reach you in 4-7 days.
Thanks again to Dan for agreeing to test the chip. With a 30 day money back warranty - what have you got to lose? (I'm sure someone will come up with something! ;-))
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
04-01-2006, 04:51 PM
#131
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Hi Dan,
Do the UK rennlisters get the same offer as our American friends......ie the chip for $175.00......around £95.00 at current exchange rates
Steve 1991 c2 tip
Do the UK rennlisters get the same offer as our American friends......ie the chip for $175.00......around £95.00 at current exchange rates
Steve 1991 c2 tip
04-01-2006, 06:03 PM
#132
Andrew
Am I to assume your chip is not smog compliant? Will the engine light come on as a result?
Dan
What other mods do you have on your car to get 16% increase in torque? That's assumed to have other mods as well. On top of that, Promax asks for 98RON which is 94AKI. Where do you get 94 pump octane to get the maximum benefit?
Am I to assume your chip is not smog compliant? Will the engine light come on as a result?
Dan
What other mods do you have on your car to get 16% increase in torque? That's assumed to have other mods as well. On top of that, Promax asks for 98RON which is 94AKI. Where do you get 94 pump octane to get the maximum benefit?
04-02-2006, 02:23 PM
#133
Racer
Originally Posted by cockyapple
Do the UK rennlisters get the same offer as our American friends......ie the chip for $175.00......around £95.00 at current exchange rates
Steve 1991 c2 tip
Steve 1991 c2 tip
Unfortauntely, the offer applies only to USD sales (in US Dollars) for orders to USA/Canadian customers. This is a limited offer to encourage sales to USA/ Canada based 964 drivers.
UK owners can purchase the chip at the USA Rennlist offer price in sterling, this equates to a VAT inclusive total price of £124.95. Usual price is £149.95.
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
04-02-2006, 02:26 PM
#134
Racer
Originally Posted by Eggplant Cab
Andrew
Am I to assume your chip is not smog compliant? Will the engine light come on as a result?
Dan
What other mods do you have on your car to get 16% increase in torque? That's assumed to have other mods as well. On top of that, Promax asks for 98RON which is 94AKI. Where do you get 94 pump octane to get the maximum benefit?
Am I to assume your chip is not smog compliant? Will the engine light come on as a result?
Dan
What other mods do you have on your car to get 16% increase in torque? That's assumed to have other mods as well. On top of that, Promax asks for 98RON which is 94AKI. Where do you get 94 pump octane to get the maximum benefit?
The chip has not been tested to be smog compliant, but should be fine. We only had to make the 968 chip different for the USA. 964/911 images were common to ROW/USA and the closed loop O2 sensor running will ensure correct AFR.
Again, if anybody purchases one and needs to return it for that reason - no problem - we'll just process the refund.
No CEL with Dan's car - hence, this should not be an issue. You can use 93 MON/RON/2 fuel (91 will be OK too).
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
04-02-2006, 02:58 PM
#135
Rennlist Member
To say that lower octanes "will be OK too" goes back to the question of increase in HP and torque.
Last I checked, you can't get the same HP/torque out of a internal combustion engine with lower octane fuels as you can with octane ratings a few points higher. Also, detonation or computer knock prevention are a concern and limitation... right?
Still waiting for the dyno results...
I wanna believe!
Last I checked, you can't get the same HP/torque out of a internal combustion engine with lower octane fuels as you can with octane ratings a few points higher. Also, detonation or computer knock prevention are a concern and limitation... right?
Still waiting for the dyno results...
I wanna believe!