ProMAX Chip and Maf unit
02-13-2006, 02:47 PM
#1
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ProMAX Chip and Maf unit
I am interested in the ProMAX chip - but have read so many different views and opinions on this site - but does anyone have any direct experience with this bit of kit - the claims are convincing but can any one offer direct experience ?
My bomber has just had a full rebuild, LW flywheel, drilled air box, and bypass - can any one help please ?
My bomber has just had a full rebuild, LW flywheel, drilled air box, and bypass - can any one help please ?
02-13-2006, 03:33 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Rod,
I've got the ProMax chip in my C4 and have been very impressed with it. Not so much from a pure power/performance point of view - only because it's difficult to use additional power in purely street driving - but the added flexibility makes the car much nicer to drive at traffic speeds. It benefits from the freer exhaust and airbox and the use of Optimax. Well worth £149 of anybody's money.
The MAF unit is another story. Firstly the MAF unit comes with it's own chip so the £149 bit becomes redundant. I have no first hand experience of the MAF unit although it does sound attractive. I would like to see some dyno evidence of it's benefit before spending £800 though.
Regards
Dave
I've got the ProMax chip in my C4 and have been very impressed with it. Not so much from a pure power/performance point of view - only because it's difficult to use additional power in purely street driving - but the added flexibility makes the car much nicer to drive at traffic speeds. It benefits from the freer exhaust and airbox and the use of Optimax. Well worth £149 of anybody's money.
The MAF unit is another story. Firstly the MAF unit comes with it's own chip so the £149 bit becomes redundant. I have no first hand experience of the MAF unit although it does sound attractive. I would like to see some dyno evidence of it's benefit before spending £800 though.
Regards
Dave
02-13-2006, 05:04 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thanks Marc for the pointer. Still not wonderfully clear though - the chart is for a 3.2, it's all in German and it's difficult to see if it really gives a before and after comparison.
My concern with this is that, according to Colin Belton, one of the severe limitations on the 964 is the sheer amount of fuel which can be moved through the injectors - I believe he mentioned a figure of 300 bhp being the maximum achievable with the standard injectors and DME.
If this is the case, I wonder if moving to a more sophisticated air flow measurement is really going to give startling results on it's own. I can see the benefits of it being installed alongside bigger injectors and, maybe, a Motec DME and possibly other enhancements too. Can the new MAF on it's own justify an outlay of £800??
I'm not trying to argue the case one way or the other for the moment and I'd welcome some input (Andrew???) to satisfy my concerns.
Regards
Dave
My concern with this is that, according to Colin Belton, one of the severe limitations on the 964 is the sheer amount of fuel which can be moved through the injectors - I believe he mentioned a figure of 300 bhp being the maximum achievable with the standard injectors and DME.
If this is the case, I wonder if moving to a more sophisticated air flow measurement is really going to give startling results on it's own. I can see the benefits of it being installed alongside bigger injectors and, maybe, a Motec DME and possibly other enhancements too. Can the new MAF on it's own justify an outlay of £800??
I'm not trying to argue the case one way or the other for the moment and I'd welcome some input (Andrew???) to satisfy my concerns.
Regards
Dave
02-13-2006, 07:19 PM
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Computamedic ,
Colin is right that standard 964 injectors can support 300 bhp and then run out of flow . The 993 has slightly larger flow rate injectors .
The MAF kit is to overcome any flow limitations in the flap unit and give a better throttle response.
The DME re-chip to sort fuelling and most importantly , ignition timing is still very much required and is NOT replaced by the MAF.
The biggest power gain on a standard 964 motor comes from optimising the top end ignition timing.This goes for the 993 as well.
So you dont think I am just repeating what has been said before , I have spent toooo many hours calibrating these motors on chassis and engine dynos.
What works, becomes very obvious , very quickly !!
As a personal view , Motec is the ECU of choice for people who find it difficult to remap Motronic to achieve what they want or they have a very difficult motor configuration . That may sound a bit harsh but Motec is pretty expensive and I would spend the money on exhaust etc!!
Last bit is my $0.02 and should be ignored if thats the way you want to spend your money !!
All the best
Geoff
Colin is right that standard 964 injectors can support 300 bhp and then run out of flow . The 993 has slightly larger flow rate injectors .
The MAF kit is to overcome any flow limitations in the flap unit and give a better throttle response.
The DME re-chip to sort fuelling and most importantly , ignition timing is still very much required and is NOT replaced by the MAF.
The biggest power gain on a standard 964 motor comes from optimising the top end ignition timing.This goes for the 993 as well.
So you dont think I am just repeating what has been said before , I have spent toooo many hours calibrating these motors on chassis and engine dynos.
What works, becomes very obvious , very quickly !!
As a personal view , Motec is the ECU of choice for people who find it difficult to remap Motronic to achieve what they want or they have a very difficult motor configuration . That may sound a bit harsh but Motec is pretty expensive and I would spend the money on exhaust etc!!
Last bit is my $0.02 and should be ignored if thats the way you want to spend your money !!
All the best
Geoff
02-13-2006, 07:41 PM
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Thanks - great knowledge
- can i assume that the proMAX chip is a worthwhile aid to drivability rather than extra performance but that the MAf kit is more questionable - bearing in mind the cost ?
Should i buy the chip - computormedic says yes and his experience sounds good
any more 0.02 cents or even two penuth worth of advice ?
- can i assume that the proMAX chip is a worthwhile aid to drivability rather than extra performance but that the MAf kit is more questionable - bearing in mind the cost ?
Should i buy the chip - computormedic says yes and his experience sounds good
any more 0.02 cents or even two penuth worth of advice ?
02-13-2006, 07:53 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
If MAFs don't add much then why does PCA racing bump you TWO classes for a MAF? I just removed my Autothority MAF/chip because I intend to race this year, but would have rather kept it on. Not sure what this will mean at the track, but w/ the MAF, Corvette Z06s would not pull me by much on the straights.
Jim
Jim
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02-13-2006, 07:57 PM
#8
Racer
Originally Posted by rodders
Thanks - great knowledge
- can i assume that the proMAX chip is a worthwhile aid to drivability rather than extra performance but that the MAf kit is more questionable - bearing in mind the cost ?
Should i buy the chip - computormedic says yes and his experience sounds good
any more 0.02 cents or even two penuth worth of advice ?
- can i assume that the proMAX chip is a worthwhile aid to drivability rather than extra performance but that the MAf kit is more questionable - bearing in mind the cost ?
Should i buy the chip - computormedic says yes and his experience sounds good
any more 0.02 cents or even two penuth worth of advice ?
The ProMAX chip alone makes a big difference to the performance of the car. However, results vary significantly from car to car depending on engine condition. Cars with good compression that is even across all 6 cylinders will respond far better than those that are tired.
We've sold lots of 964 chips in the UK and Aus/NZ and Hong Kong. They have never been offered to the US market before. If you want to try one on evaluation, I'll hapilly send you one.
Keep the chip for 14 days (should be enough time to evaluate it) and then either keep it or return it. USA price is $239.95 inc. shipping.
To arrange, please get in touch via andrew@promaxmotorsport.com (I'm in the UK so at least 5 hours ahead of you).
Regards,
Andrew
02-13-2006, 08:02 PM
#9
Racer
Originally Posted by forklift
If MAFs don't add much then why does PCA racing bump you TWO classes for a MAF? I just removed my Autothority MAF/chip because I intend to race this year, but would have rather kept it on. Not sure what this will mean at the track, but w/ the MAF, Corvette Z06s would not pull me by much on the straights.
Jim
Jim
The ProMAX MAF kit will make a big difference to your car's performance. see the thread on the 911 forum (shows a sample dyno chart).
Greatly increased airflow and more fueling and advance at the top end = more power. The chip also has reworked fuel and ignition data to smooth out the driving experience and widen the mid range.
We should have some more customer feedback in the next few days as all the sold kits reach their owners / get fitted. I'll post more info soon.
USA kits will be sold with a 30 day money back guarantee with free return shipping intially. Just make sure your car is in good shape first. Tired and worn engines will not respond as well as those with good compression and minimal leak down.
All the best.
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
02-13-2006, 08:11 PM
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Hi Andrew
i am here in the UK - Chelsea I think we spoke today and am still trying to learn
- I looked on Titanic but not much there
I am very interested in your offer and will call you tomorrow
My car has has a very recent full rebuild, a LW flywheel, bypass and drilled box.
Nothing unusual but i have had the car from new - some 16 years and you are right most 964 owners are a bit conservative - but I think my car is in good shape to benefit from detail improvements to drivability and your chip sounds well worth checking out
i am here in the UK - Chelsea I think we spoke today and am still trying to learn
- I looked on Titanic but not much there
I am very interested in your offer and will call you tomorrow
My car has has a very recent full rebuild, a LW flywheel, bypass and drilled box.
Nothing unusual but i have had the car from new - some 16 years and you are right most 964 owners are a bit conservative - but I think my car is in good shape to benefit from detail improvements to drivability and your chip sounds well worth checking out
02-13-2006, 09:58 PM
#11
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rodders,
Looks like you have your answers !! The 964 gives just about the best improvement to remapping of all the 911s . The standard bhp of 250 is pretty conservative. Just a very little more timing and the RS had 260.
The 993 non vario has a bit more timing + hot film and is 272 .
Outside the car manufacturing /calibrating business people think that their motor has been set to give the best possible results ! Without the marketing department and their obsession with product positioning that could be true !!!
The 964 was gently held back so there was room for manouvre with the 993 motor. Who would buy a new 911 that had a small extra bhp over the old model !!!
With a good strong motor , optimised mapping ,good exhaust and hot film , it is not exceptional to see pretty well 290bhp.
Sounds like you are under way - Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Geoff
Looks like you have your answers !! The 964 gives just about the best improvement to remapping of all the 911s . The standard bhp of 250 is pretty conservative. Just a very little more timing and the RS had 260.
The 993 non vario has a bit more timing + hot film and is 272 .
Outside the car manufacturing /calibrating business people think that their motor has been set to give the best possible results ! Without the marketing department and their obsession with product positioning that could be true !!!
The 964 was gently held back so there was room for manouvre with the 993 motor. Who would buy a new 911 that had a small extra bhp over the old model !!!
With a good strong motor , optimised mapping ,good exhaust and hot film , it is not exceptional to see pretty well 290bhp.
Sounds like you are under way - Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Geoff
02-14-2006, 02:03 AM
#12
For those that want to get back to some reality, read this link:
www.andial.com on the FAQ page, Question #2.
Andial Racing was Porsche USA for racing, having prepared engines for Daytona,
Le Mans, etc. With the use of knock sensors, Porsche basically fully tweaked the
timing maps on the 964 & 993. Further "pushing" the timing maps only results in
the timing being retarded much sooner, causing less overall gain as exemplified
in the Andial post. Tweaking of the fuel maps maps yields little to nothing without
engine mods, e.g. CR or a new piston size.
Bottomline: There have been many threads here on Rennlist which discuss the
questionable merits of performance chips. Just do a simple search. They all basically
indicate the same, as has been the case for the last 15 years. There was no great
breakthroughs back then, and the same 8051 microcontroller with a 32KX8 EPROM
and an additional DSP time domain knock microcontroller is still in all the 964s now.
Now in 2006 everyone has a laptop and access to the "widely" held EPROM re-mapper,
so it's now become everyone's weekend DIY project. Check the Rennlist 928 forum
where John Speake sells a EPROM tweaker for the 928. As is frequently said about
the financial market, it's "very efficient" - meaning little is gained by technical
analysis, as is the case for EPROM tweaking, i.e. Porsche did good!
www.andial.com on the FAQ page, Question #2.
Andial Racing was Porsche USA for racing, having prepared engines for Daytona,
Le Mans, etc. With the use of knock sensors, Porsche basically fully tweaked the
timing maps on the 964 & 993. Further "pushing" the timing maps only results in
the timing being retarded much sooner, causing less overall gain as exemplified
in the Andial post. Tweaking of the fuel maps maps yields little to nothing without
engine mods, e.g. CR or a new piston size.
Bottomline: There have been many threads here on Rennlist which discuss the
questionable merits of performance chips. Just do a simple search. They all basically
indicate the same, as has been the case for the last 15 years. There was no great
breakthroughs back then, and the same 8051 microcontroller with a 32KX8 EPROM
and an additional DSP time domain knock microcontroller is still in all the 964s now.
Now in 2006 everyone has a laptop and access to the "widely" held EPROM re-mapper,
so it's now become everyone's weekend DIY project. Check the Rennlist 928 forum
where John Speake sells a EPROM tweaker for the 928. As is frequently said about
the financial market, it's "very efficient" - meaning little is gained by technical
analysis, as is the case for EPROM tweaking, i.e. Porsche did good!
Last edited by Lorenfb; 02-14-2006 at 03:35 AM.
02-14-2006, 05:04 AM
#13
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thanks Lorenfb - I have moved into areas beyond my understanding, - to be expected - but your message is let well alone unless combined with other major mods -
I suppose this kind of advice is what I was looking for
- so - the bottom line is - subtle is the significant word and confidence in the mapping that is achieved by a different chip
- more to think about !
But many many thanks - just the kind of help i was hoping for
I suppose this kind of advice is what I was looking for
- so - the bottom line is - subtle is the significant word and confidence in the mapping that is achieved by a different chip
- more to think about !
But many many thanks - just the kind of help i was hoping for
02-14-2006, 09:51 AM
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Lorenfb ,
I expected your response as I know this is a strongly held view by you. I can only pass on what I know and have seen after 20 years on the dyno in Europe.
The 964 calibration was for low quality fuel . I would agree that ignition adjustment for a 964 running on 89 octane would be pretty pointless.The best quality we have here is 93 US which equates to 96-97 European. This does give opportunity .
The 272 993 calibration is for 93 US-97 Euro so care is needed !
For interest some of the factory "special wishes " programmes involve a timing remap.
ChrisM,
The worst part of the 964 exhaust is the primary silencer. I have never done measurements on a 964 with a 993 exhaust system but that may be interesting.
All the best
Geoff
I expected your response as I know this is a strongly held view by you. I can only pass on what I know and have seen after 20 years on the dyno in Europe.
The 964 calibration was for low quality fuel . I would agree that ignition adjustment for a 964 running on 89 octane would be pretty pointless.The best quality we have here is 93 US which equates to 96-97 European. This does give opportunity .
The 272 993 calibration is for 93 US-97 Euro so care is needed !
For interest some of the factory "special wishes " programmes involve a timing remap.
ChrisM,
The worst part of the 964 exhaust is the primary silencer. I have never done measurements on a 964 with a 993 exhaust system but that may be interesting.
All the best
Geoff