JPTL

Short article on the CS auction:
https://www.classicdriver.com/en/art...idnt-want-sell

physicstim

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9n2wdo1D/1988-porsche-928-s4

up for sale is my hobby car. I’ve had it for a decade and enjoyed this communities input and tricks to maintain and enjoy this wonderful ride.

928 GT R

Corrected: https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/

worf928

The estimate window of hammer price for that CS doesn’t make sense to me. It’s not “original” in any sense of the word - hit, repainted - and the “restoration” can be, best case, described as “random” bits with neither attention to detail nor any notion of thoroughness.

For 1/3-mil for a car that cannot be driven except on/off a trailer, shouldn’t it look like new under the hood? And underneath too.

911Dave

I agree. As a collector car, it's only a 2+. Maybe brings 200k or a little over. I'd much rather own a car I can drive for half that much. Porsche Classic should buy it, put it back to as-new condition, and put in the museum in Stuttgart.

Tom. M

And they recently replaced the A/C compressor that I believe was unique (lighter) to the CS 928's. That needs to be evaluated.
I really like this CS due to its unique color but the repaint and other stuff makes it less valuable for sure.

Rob Edwards

I'd restore it.

olmann

I think I will buy it, install a hitch and haul my boat.

JPTL

After Rob restores it, of course

928 GT R

Worf928/Dave C.

Thank you for your assessment of the 1989 Club Sport that Broad Arrow is auctioning. As a respected 928 mechanic and expert with serious credibility here on this an other forums, you have stated: "1/3-mil for a car that cannot be driven except on/off a trailer".

I have to ask:
1. What do you base this statement on?
2. Have you inspected the car personally?
3. What specifically is wrong with it mechanically that it "cannot be driven except on/off a trailer"?
4. What have you found wrong with it as far as drivability goes?

You also stated, "It's not original in any sense of the word - hit, repainted - and the "restoration"can be, best case, described as "random bits with neither attention to detail nor any notion of thoroughness.

My questions:
1. Is it the original color?
2. Does it have the original engine and transmission?
3. Is the interior incorrect without original surfaces and is the dashboard and pod incorrect? Or, is it original configuration and excellent condition?
4. Does it have its books and records?
5. How much of the car has been repainted?
6. What damage remains unrepaired?
7. Are the kilometers represented false?
8. What are the "random bits"?
9. Is the car mis-represented in any way?

Your statement that it is "random bits with neither attention to detail or thoroughness" is destructive to the value of this car to me as a potential buyer and as a collector. As an "Expert" on these cars - please explain your brutal assessment of this unique and rare car. I am certain that the owner and other potential buyers will be interested in the details of your expert inspection so they can be corrected.

Respectfully,

David

JPTL

worf928

I've broken my rule about commenting in any way about 928s being sold.

David, it was not indented as an assessment. It was more of a question. Let me explain...

The vast majority of collector cars are not "drivers." And, indeed, many it seems are not driven except maybe a few hundred miles before changing hands to another collector. In general, owners of collector-quality cars are very parsimonious about putting miles on them since depreciation can often be measured in 10s (sometimes even 100s) of dollars per mile notwithstanding the risk of getting it hit by the proverbial "old lady."

If you were to spend 350 large on this would you trailer it to SITM, or IOC, or would you drive it and risk getting it totaled by some idiot on I-whatever? It's not replaceable even a little bit like a rare 991 Turbo (or a built-to-spec like mine.)

Thus, in that sense it "cannot be driven except on/off a trailer". It *could* very likely be driven all over, but it is highly unlikely that it ever will be. And if it is, it would be for the 30-ish mile fun run at SITM and then back onto the trailer.

Mechanical fitness isn't the issue. It's not going to get driven a bunch so, it mostly needs to look really pretty.

Hang on... still getting to the question here...

Since the above questions are rhetorical it is clear that you are irked. Is my above explanation of "cannot be driven except on/off a trailer" sufficient to relieve your blood pressure?

I did. And that is, I think, a succinct summary of the text presented on the auction site:

"Following an accident to the rear of the car, additional invoices from Landsharks that year show the Club Sport was the recipient of cosmetic attention as well with interior saddlery work, a new windshield, new seals, unibody work to repair the rear accident damage, and fresh paint in its original shade of Forest Green Metallic."

What does original mean? I always thought that "original" meant, among other things: 100% original paint, or *at least* no body work. Maybe a front or rear apron. "Unibody work" is more than an apron.

If I'm out of touch with the definition of the term "original" then I apologize. Please inform me of the operative definition.

But, that's the question: What's original then? Is a hit, repainted, repaired car still "original enough" for this level? Even if it is 1 of 1? Not an ex-Derek Bell either?

Or maybe it's just post-Covid inflation?

Or maybe 928s are about to enter the 911 realm where a shard of metal with a VIN can be restored (for varying values of "restored") for a profit?

If the answer is "yes" then I'm off the edge of my world and should (and will from now on) focus 100% on the AR side of the ledger instead of the AP side of the ledger. And that was my mistake here.

What exactly is the average bidder on this expecting to see when they get it in their hands? When they pop the hood? When they look at its belly on a lift?

What are the expectations of someone bidding on this? Are they expecting a perfect 928? A 928 that looks like new under and over? A 928 with original paint?

Or, is needing $1000 or $5000 or $10000 or $50000 or $100000 of work to make it show-room perfect not an issue at this level? Or does that not matter at all?

Or, will the winning bidder simply be incensed and shoot the messenger that finds anything at all not factory-perfect about it after they paid 4x MSRP for it?

And these are all very good questions. Did you see a picture of the block stamp with the engine code on it? A picture of the options sticker?

If this was on BaT you'd be well-advised to get those pictures.

Based upon the tone of your response, I will assume that further exposition of why would not be welcome.

Also good questions. Does the auction sight have invoices? Does the description provide sufficient detail to answer those questions?

Does the auction site make available the service records?

Does it actually matter?

You never know how good someone's work is until you take it apart. Even with invoices, the only way to determine how much damage still remains is by taking things apart.

Again I can tell from the apparent tone of your message that that response is probably less welcome than my afternoon post.

I made no such allegation. In your rage you are throwing the kitchen sink and its plumbing at me.

If this was an 88 or older then we all know that it would be TMU unless it has a credible paper trail. For '89+ as long as it's the original cluster then there is no certain, common failure mode yet discovered that renders displayed mileage as suspect as for '88 and older. (As far as I know.)

There are three (poor) pictures of the engine bay and these are items I would not let pass on a "non-original" 928 of this caliber that was in my shop for pre-sale tasks:

- K&N filter. And improperly installed.
- Washer filler neck is brown with age
- top of condenser is beaten to hell
- unplated bolts for engine bay brace and several others
- brake booster rear section is rusty
- How about some new stickers on the radiator?

Note that those low depth of focus pictures are meant to be artsy, not informative.

It does have a jump post cap and splash shield thank God.

I note that the auction text doesn't mention the word "restoration" - that word got stuck in my head as the result of the Rennlist spam email about this that went out last week.

That's on me. Sorry. I apologize for using the word "restoration."

That's a good question. One would expect a reputable auction house to do their homework and check the engine number, yes?

Nevertheless, did I write that it was mis-represented?

No. I didn't.

What did I write that implied that it was mis-represented?

I would write *NOW* that I think it is under-represented. But, it becomes clear to me that I am missing something about the expectations of bidders at this level.

I wrote "The estimate[d] window of hammer price for that CS doesn’t make sense to me."

And it doesn't. Make sense. To me.

Because, I've always contemplated two classes of collectors cars:
- no body work, minimal paintwork, patina, *original*, lots of service records, ultra-low mileage
- restored in and out, body damage or not, no patina.

This is neither of those and so... it doesn't make sense how it fits.

I apologize for that summary statement that was based upon the 1/2-dozen items I saw in the three engine bay pictures.

For mid-6 figure target for a non-original (by the above definition) I would expect more effort pre-sales. But, again, I apparently have no idea how the collector market works here and my expectations are out of touch.

I think I have explained as well as I can the thoughts behind what I posted this afternoon.

I will accept your dripping vitriol and sarcasm as the price of not crafting this afternoon's question with more precision. Indeed, for having posted at all.

Last as a lesson in observing silently the goings-on in the collectors market for 928s.

928cs

The other Forrest green CS was delivered with a hitch, to haul a vintage racing Bentley.
Would-you like to buy it? I can put you in touch with the owner. It's restored too, as most of the CS's are, or needed to be.

928cs

The A/C compressor was also used on others regular 928's, GTS's in particular.

928 GT R

Hi Dave,

Question 2 was not rhetorical. Did you inspect this car?

Yes? or No?

Hope to see you at SITM again! We can have a pretty good chuckle about this and other 928 trivia. Cheers!