Ag951

Same with the guys ambushing US convoys in Iraq today.
If they had invaded us, how many of us would be fighting back using whatever resources at our disposal?
If the US wins, they'll go down as terrorists. If it turns into a Vietnam-esque quagmire and the US withdraws, they'll go down as resistance fighters.

You should see what Amnesty International and other Human Rights orgs think of Israel's policy towards the Palestinians.

And for any of you who think some of us are "traitors" for not blindly following the current US policy, here are some opinions from some other US "traitors":
Applies to the mid-east too.

We failed on that one.

Legoland951

We are the proverbial bully but I was in a debate with a friend earlier where I asked her: would you like any other country to be a bigger bully and impose their way of life on us and change our system? Sometimes, we do have to carry a big stick even though I believe we have been using that stick way too much and instead of having the stick behind our backs, we are carrying it in front of us swinging. Iraqi freedom? Its like an army from Vegas invading Utah and liberating the people from their christian way of life and bringing about "freedom". We show evil things Saddam did, and he is no saint. If they showed our executions and prison system where people are killed by gangsters and sodomized by inmates along with drive by shootings and columbine, I believe they can make a good case against our "freedom". Still, the idiot who posted the original comment think people deserve worse than what happened in 9/11. I like to put him in the building when it happened.

Matt H

Ag951- someone said once (I dont remember who) "Until lions write, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter" something similar anyway. Gets the point across.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

Ag951

Lego, you sound like a Libertarian.
From me that's a compliment.

Here's the agreement you have to sign to join the party:
"I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals."

We're big on using the Department of Defense to defend the nation, not to push our personal agendas around the globe (or at home).
Did you guys know that Dubya is trying to repeal the really old law that forbids the President to deploy troops on US soil in peace time? And Ashcroft has written a patriot act II that will allow the feds to kidnap a "suspcious" person, without telling his lawyer, family, or anyone else.
And it broadens the definition of "terrorist" to include anybody who works to counter the US government or its actions. That would include anti-war protesters, journalists who ask "where are Saddam's WMD?", etc.

EZRider

Understood. I am twice your age but it has taken all these years to weed the facts from fictions. Have studied history and to a large extent lived it. Was born in Transylvania at the time Russia had it locked behind the Iron Curtain. If you peel enough layers away from any country's history you will find it fraught with cruelty beyond words. So much so in fact that our mistakes pales in comparison. Our relationship with USA is much like a marriage. We have our ups and downs but when it comes to facing the adversary we stick together, right or wrong. We are under attack by fanatics in a religious war who are not interested in freedom of speech nor justice. In Afghanistant they blew up the giant Budha statue because it was an affront to their religion. Freedom of speech was not an option. All I am saying to everyone if you like to argue your point make sure it is for a good cause!

And now I will step off...

iloveporsches

Ag and Lego,
Right on!

Matt H

I dont know that I agree with either of the above, it was not my intention to say that I do. I dont know that either of your quote apply to current situations because of there context.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

Matt H

Damn delay between posts. I would consider myself a civil libertarian. When it comes to foreign policy it depends on the situation.

EZ - no disagreement. My original post was that I didnt like what he said but he had the right to say it.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

iloveporsches

I <3 police states!

SidViscous

"If they showed our executions and prison system where people are killed by gangsters and sodomized by inmates along with drive by shootings and columbine"

Lego, it's a question of degree. Yes we do put to death prisoners, after they recieve a trial, appeals and all the other stuff. In Iraq Saddam killed people without a trail for questionable reasons, his sons killed their sisters husbands because they didn't like them, they picked up people who didn't agree with Saddam tortured and killed them. The equivalent of Dubya picking up Al Gore and killing him without a trail because he didn't agree with him. And drive by shootings have little to do with the government.


So it's not the same. by the same argument (yours) we couldn't have justified going after Hitler or Tojo. In fact the Japanese people felt very much the same as some Iraq's do today. In Okinawa thousands comited suicide because they had been told that our Marines would do to them the kinds of things that Japanese soldiers had done to other people. The differnce is that the Rape of Nanking couldn't have happened with our governement, even today. So for the most part we are the good guys.

Nowour government is far from perfect, but I don't worry about the government legally killing me without a trail becuase of something I said.

Legoland951

We can never make exact comparisons Sid because every case is different. My point is if they wanted to televise what we do here with their own twist, they can have their people believing that we are "evil". I don't believe everything I see in the media and believe we have our own "twist". I also believe Japan deserved the atomic bomb for what they did but the point is that kamikazis are considered national heroes and not terriorists. For the most part, we are the good guys. I would die defending our way of life. I just have to believe we are doing the right thing and often nowadays I can't say we are doing the right thing. I don't want to mix our individual actions with us being "good guys" or bad. Good guys do wrong things every once in a while too.

savage944

First let me say I am torn over commenting or not commenting, but I decided to comment

As a US ARMY Vet, I have served from 1/1/87 to present. Mostly active duty, now I am in the reserves. Been all over the world, lots of missions have been humanitarian in nature, aid, food, etc. I have seen plenty of bloodshed and conflict, sometimes seems more so than aid. But we always endeavored to do good, but seems to always be a group some place that just plain doesn’t like anything we do period. Some are violent, some are just loud and protest. Or from their point of view it isn’t good we are doing, people disagree and opinions are subjective to your point of view and environment.

I did Saudi the first time, and then I went back after desert storm with the UN Peace Keeping forces and been deployed more times than I care to remember.

I have had rocks, stones, bombs, and everything under the sun thrown at me or used in my general area, to do me or others harm.

Words never bothered me, if you want to stand there and insult me or America, in another country fine, its your country, when I was in those countries I accepted that I was on foreign soil. I lost friends and shed blood on a lot of different soil.

I did my job and as a whole I think we did a lot of good. Now of course military and political action is never simply or exact. Just ask someone from one of the places we where what they think and you get of different point of views.

While I would defend anyone’s right to freedom, including freedom of expression, I don’t believe that you should do so at others expense or the memory of their loss.

I don’t support what he said, but been defending the right to say what you think for some time, as did my father, and his father and so on. I am also a Native American Indian, Sioux, My ancestors died trying to stay free and keep their land, that aside I have still always defended this country and the principal of freedom.

If you look through enough history for any ethnic minority group in any country's history you will find it fraught with cruelty and injustice, as history and policy are dictated usually by the majority rule, that includes this country, but there are ways to bring about change that do not involve killing innocents in random slayings, bombings, etc…

Violence is in human nature as is often the desire to place the source of all evils and transgressions against you or your people on someone or something else. Mostly this is a blind point of view and when taken with enough fanatic devotion it leads to fanatic actions. In Americas case we tend to end up as the focal point for that, its all our fault. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

Freedom is precious, but I think the one significant point that I always believed in is that freedom is never free, there is a cost, always a cost.

Now to say that it should be paid with the blood of innocents, or that Americans need to suffer more because others are suffering, is wrong!

Again if we don’t get involved we are blamed and berated, if we do get involved we see the same thing for being involved or not getting involved sooner. Etc, etc, etc…

But all the philosophy and etc aside, I have the right to disagree with him and of course, If I happen to be around when he says it, pound him into the ground, yea that’s violent, and yep I would pay a price .... their is always a price.... If I take it out of your hide... well sorry about you luck. Sure I can help you with your car, come on over wicked, got something to show you in the garage will hook you right up… ok all joking aside… I am not prone to violence… but opening your mouth and ranting about how America needs to suffer probably not the best idea or proper use of the freedoms you enjoy in this country.

Yep Violence breeds violence as does hatred… then again pounding him for saying what he said would feel real good, but it wouldn’t change his opinion!!!!!!!!!!

SidViscous

That's kind of what I was saying Lego. In the end the Iraqi people will be better off. And others will always disagree with us.

Personally I think we should pull back to our borders, reduce international trade to buying certain rescources that we can get cheaper than we can get here (oil) selling whatever anyone wants and let the world take care of itself. Mainly because I'm sick of everyone whining about us.

Ag951

Sid, there are people who consider our prison system brutal: Canada and Western Europe where the death penalty is considered barbaric.
But you're right. There's a big difference between proving a guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, giving him one mandatory appeal, then executing him ten years later, and shooting a guy in the head for questioning the Fuehrer.
But you're wrong about US troops doing no wrong:
http://www.projectcensored.org/publi...s/2004/11.html
They're only human, and sometimes emotion overcomes reason.

I don't think the Iraqis will necessarily be better off. First there are the million or more Iraqis who died as a result of the invasion. They and there families will never be better off.
As for the others. They might not be ready for a free government. Germany and Japan benefitted from US occupation, but what about Panama, Haiti, or the Balkans? Those three are worse off now than before the US invasion.

Water944t

Too many Americans are blinded by the 9/11 event to the terrible things that are happening in our own country. While I would probably be first in line to take a few of Wicked951's teeth, and would never defend his comment, having spent time all over the world in defense of our government I can at least understand the resentment that engenders the feelings that provoked him. I was proud of my service, but I am not proud of what my country has done in the last few years.

We are reviled in most countries as gluttonous, poorly educated, and completely lacking in any awareness of reality when it comes to the world outside our borders.

And they are right. On all points. To those of you who doubt me, I can only say, go travel and see for yourselves. We are the fattest, the most illiterate (not naming any names, but when people take pride in and boast of their ability to demonstrate ineptness in their native tounge, its just too sad.) and without a doubt, arrogant in our belief that everyone somehow wants to be like us. If you havent been outside the borders of North America, you just have no clue. Fox News and CNN feed you what they want you to know, if you werent aware of this already.

We are fed a steady diet of American Idol and Entertainment Tonight, while our government spends more on weapons than we do on education. Secret weapons programs are funded at an all time high, and schools cant afford chalk. As my wife said the other night, "we are buying guns with our children's future".

Many of you seem to use the 'defending liberty and free speech for the helpless' platform to defend our countries actions, but can you not see that forcing others to take up democracy and become more 'American' is a direct violation of the freedoms we claim to uphold? Some say, "they will be better off in the end"...by whos standards? Is being Americanized such a good thing, that it outweighs the destruction of the way of life that they have chosen for centuries longer than this country has existed?

And don't even get me started on the mis-named Patriot Act, and its evil brethren. Any piece of legislation that takes away liberties and rights that good honest Americans died to defend is on my ****list with a vengeance. Some of you should go read that thing, it will scare you. Just dont talk about it on the phone, or on the internet. After all, we are all potential terrorists to John Ashcroft, he would even like to pay your neighbor to spy on you. Hello, Mr. Stalin!

Our country grows steadily deeper in debt under the Bush administration, and yet the fat cats and war mongerers are richer than ever. Middle America is bought off with a $800 tax refund, and our schools have to let teachers go because they cant pay them. Music and art programs are canceled due to lack of funding, while we spend a billion dollars a day to carpet bomb a bunch of poor bastards who didnt do **** to us, except be foolish enough to have weak leaders who made bad choices. We have killed more innocent Afghanis through collateral damage than died in the WTC, isnt it enough yet?

It also bothers me that most manufacturing, computer, and technical jobs are slowly migrating out of the US. We are slowly becoming a nation of overweight, disrespectful, litigious, un-educated hyper-consumers. With no sense of personal responsibility, I might add, its never my fault that something happens, its because McDonalds made the coffee too hot, or my dad didnt hug me, or rock music made me suicidal, and video games made me violent.

I love this country, or at least what we used to be/should still be. We were once a country of proud, strong, rugged individuals who bound together in hopes of creating something good. But then the politicians and the lawyers were allowed to breed, and now all I see is Rome. Corrupt and diseased, like a plum left on the tree too long. And we, like Rome, will eventually fall under the weight of our own corruption.

We need some Washingtons, some Jeffersons, even an Adams would do, but instead we get ex-CIA heads, and National Guard deserters, and foreign-born weightlifters.

I weep sometimes for this country, there is so much good in her still.