SidViscous

Says he from a country that has conqoured and colonized more of the world than any other country.

jp944

Maybe that's the point...he's pro-colonialization. Perhaps he's envisioning the 54 states of America. Big welcome to Iraq Dakota, Afghanistanabama, New Hampshiran and Kuwaitifornia.

Look on the bright side - think of how cheap Mobil 1 could get.

SidViscous

I've got to say, I don't know if you got those somewhere else or thought them up on your own, but that's the first smile I've had all day.

Graufuchs

Sad when some people can be so sadistic and self centered and forget the feeling of losing someone they love.....I guess no one he loved was in one of those buildings.....


As a side note..I wouldnt go around saying that stuff...it could end you up in the hospital......

jp944

All original. Glad to help, Sid!

Ag951

What buildings? Do you mean the ones destroyed by a group that has no relationship with the former Iraqi despot? The terrorist group that would have liked to kill Hussein almost as much as Bush?
Al Queda is/was based in Afganistan. It was allied with the Taliban (both groups actually grew out of the US and Pakistan sponsored Muhajadin). It had nothing to do with Iraq.
Saddam Hussein did not sponsor terrorism, except when it was politically convenient for him. He was not an fundamentalist Islamic idealist/madman like bin Laden or Khomeni. He wasn't even pro-Palestinian, except when he tried to stir up anti-Israeli sentiment during both invasions, in an attempt to draw other Arab nations into the fight. They all knew it was a ploy, and that Saddam didn't give a rat's *** about the Palestinians or the Jihad. Even when Al Queda suggested defending Iraq from the US this year, they said they weren't assisting the Baathists, just the Iraqi people.
I doubt Lego or anybody else here was against the invasion of Afganistan, since its government backed and protected a group that launched an assault on the US, but Iraq is not Afganistan. Hussein is not bin Laden.
If you actually believe the two are related, then you've fallen for Bush's propaganda.

Are you threatening to beat Lego up for having his own opinions that differ from the current President?

Sid makes a good point about defending South Vietnam and Korea (you earned some of that respect back Sid ). But I'd argue that the majority of South Vietnamese did want a communist government. Our dads called them "VC". SV was a corrupt autocracy, and the promise of equality, prosperity, and freedom that NV offered was too good to pass up (also too good to be true). We had no chance of winning in Vietnam. No army can hold a territory if the people there do not wish for it to be held. Given enough time, the population will win.

SidViscous

Thanks jp

Ag. I'll grant you that (SV) just goes to show that this foriegn policy stuff is to complicated to win, to be perfectly honest.

Everybody has been saying that we do this in our own interest, well of course, were certainly not going to do anything against our interests. Nor can we predict what is going to happen when we do something, nor even say before the fact that it was going to be right or wrong after the fact. We in the US have done a lot of terrible things (What we did to the indians I think is the worst) but, for the most part, our motives are good (if misplaced), and we have long since given up our colinzational goals. We try to make friends not captives. It doesn't always work out, but hey what can you do.

iloveporsches

nm, I think Red1 is right about FTY's comments.

Well that makes perfect sense. And it's very true.

My problem is when people think we do things out of the kindness of our heary with nothing in return. That's very untrue.

Red1

From the Vietnamese I know, the majority just wanted an end to war. One of my secretaries is Vietnamese. She cries when we've spoken of Vietnam. You will never hear her say a good word about communists, for that I can assure you. Maybe you're right about the people that stayed in Vietnam, but from experiences I've had, I kind of doubt it.

OT - The Vietnamese have an active community here. My secretary listens to Vietnamese radio at her desk. For the life of me I can't figure that language out.


PS - I think fty's comments about "hazardous to your health" were directed at Wicked951, not Lego.

SidViscous

I don't disagree with your sentiment, and I find myself in the odd position of defending the decesions of our government, being a long time anti-governemnt type person, but there is also a realistic perspective that has to go into this. It's one thing to say the government has to change, and another to criticize actions that happen right now.

Ever been to one of those team building exercises, where they get everyone in the woods in a group. Prevent certain exercises to be accomplished, you figure out how and then put your plan into action.

The lesson to be learned isn't neccesarrily problem solving skills, as much as it is leadership, and working together. They way to complete the exercises inthe best possible time is to designate a leader, come up with a few plans, let the leader pick what he feels is the best, and put it into action. Sometimes it's realized that the plan was flawed, and the individuals have to work harder, but as long as you carry through you'll complete the exercise in the best time, with the least problems.

If during the exercise people criticize, make points about how their plan is better, nothing gets accomplished.

On the flip side of that, after action review is important. What did we do wrong, and how do we fix it. THat is the time for criticisim. Along those lines, when in the middle of the exrcise, if there is infighting, people become defensive and polarized, the after action phase doesn't work and the next exercise usually goes worse than the first.

Within armed conflict we can see that in our history fairly simply.

WW I we went to trench warfare. We entered a war of attrition and lost many lives.

WW II we went to maneuver warfare, we left most decisions to onsite commanders and we did pretty well considering.

Korea. We let politicans control the objectives, the needs. We kept maneuver warfare, but most of the general decisions to unqualified people. We got out by the skin of our teeth.

Vietnam. Even the most minor detail was decided on by people who were unqualified. Everything was given up for maneuver warfare and we got our asses handed to us.

Desert Storm. We learned form our mistakes. We modified tactics, and allowed the profesionals to use thier own judgement in getting the end goal decided on by politicians. We performed almost flawlessly.

All this came about by learning after the fact, recognizing our mistakes and modifying our behavior.

I geuss my point is. You may disagree with what we are doing, and how we are doing it. But I 1. don't see anyone offering any alternatives. 2. think that the criticisim is coming at the wrong time.

Come up with something better, help us get through the problem were in, or let those that have to do it get on and criticize after the fact.

Most important lesson of the Vietnam war, was the collective criticism back home dragged that conflict into the longest one our country has ever been involved in.

Legoland951

One thing I never figured out is why the U. S. let the communists take over the largest country in Asia and not do squat about it. During the Chinese civil war, we never went to the Chinese government to help fight against the communists the same way we fought in Vietnam or Korea. Now, the largest superpower left which is still "communistic" is China and our last remaining "rival". Anyone with an angle on this subject?

SidViscous

Because we always meddle in the affairs of other countries. Wait that's not it.

Mainly because we knew we didn't stand a chance. And Mao wasn't that unfriendly at first. Plus we knew they and Russia hated eachother.

Brian Wilson

China isn't my rival...


May we all live happy lives and not force our opinions onto others.

Take a minute to remember why all of you in the US are there and are allowed to be there and do the things that you do. I know some of you weren't born there, some of you were born there and say that you can't do anything about it (i did something). Just remeber how lucky you have it and quit complaining so much about the US, it's a nice place. I live in a country where the income tax is 52% and the sales tax is 16%!!! But i can drive as fast as i want!!! Ha ha.

As long as you live somewhere where you are free to have whatever job you want, make as much money as you want, say what you want... yeah, you've got it pretty good.

Legoland951

I don't think anyone is complaining about the country or the people in it. We are merely having an informative civilized debate over the foreign policy of the country and how the rest of the world feel about it. No country is faultless and unless you are in heaven, there is always problems to address and things to improve about your living conditions.

Ag951

Sid, the US actually did well in Vietnam...from a certain perspective. Most of the battles were ones like in "We Were Soldiers". The US would inflict 10x or greater casualties, because of superior equipment and training. But eventually the VC had to win, because the enemy we had to defeat was so tightly integrated into the population we had to defend.

The China situation is a puzzler. The Japanese invasion interrupted the Chinese Civil War, and while Chang Kai Shek started fighting the Japanese, Mao didn't put much against them. So after the war, Mao was in stronger shape.
Truman probably figured that the US was too weary from war to put up with taking on China (and a possible Soviet involvement), so the commies got the mainland.
I should point out that until 1971, the Republic of China (Taiwan) was recognized as "China" by the US, and held the Chinese seat on the UN security council. The UN General Assembly then voted to recognize Beijing as the legitimate government of China. And Nixon's state department followed suit (a billion people can buy a lot of Coca-Cola).

Edit:
Sid, you can delete a post by choosing to edit it, the at the top check the Delete box and hit the Delete button.