Legoland951

All in all, I just wish USA is seen with admiration and respect as it once did before. It doesn't matter what wrong and rights were done in the past because its already done rather we need to understand why others all around the world are pissed off at us. The British government may back us but their people don't like many of the things we do. If I wouldn't want to be in the other guy's shoes, then I most likely won't support doing it to them. Lets not hide behind "patriotic" and blind patriotism rather than doing what general schwartzkopf said "do what is right".

Lumbergs Lackey....MmmmKay

Ya see the whole problem here is that most of the world are amoral ******. for gawd sakes countries in Africa are totally berserk with half the populations cutting entire villages and cities to piecies. In parts of europe we have genocidal dictators wiping out thousands. In Middle East dictators have made hundreds of thousands dissapear. In russia.....well lets not even start on russia. When you really look at it the USA, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Austrailia, are really the only civilized moral countries left. If left to their own devices the rest of the world would implode. So like children we have to police them for their own and our own good.

Legoland951

Wow that sounds pretty arrogant to me considering how many people died as a result of U. S. foreign policy. I for one don't believe we should be the police of the world just like I don't believe russia should be the police of the world policing the U. S. - Follow the golden rule. I believe we caused the death of more than a few measly thousands in Iraq so far in just the last year. If we were switched and Saddam had our army and wanted to impose his way of life on us, do you think that is right? Or if Russia wanted to impose their government on us and they had the means, do you think they should? Is might right? We may not think their way of life is right, just like a muslim do not believe the christian way is right. It gives no right to impose our will on them (no matter how "wrong" we think their way of life is) the same way it is not right for them to impose their way of life on us. Very simple. Otherwise, we would go invade all these "amoral ******" one at a time maybe starting with Russia, North Korea, China, Africa, Middle East, and maybe even Mexico for their illegal immigration. No one died and made us god (no one told Bush that). In their eyes, their way is right just as strongly as in our eyes, our way of life is right.

SidViscous

Rememeber Lego. Before WW I and in the intervening years till WW II we were isolationaists. and the rest of the wold asked us to come out and help.

No I don't want Russia to impost their way of life on ours, Nor Saddam. But woud you rather have Europe Ruled under the Third Reich, Or Japan in control of the entire Pacafic Rim?

Actually You've answered your own argument. No I don't want russia to impose their government on us, that's whay we kept them in check for so long. Same with Iraq.

Legoland951

We can keep them in check and not invade them to overthrow their government. There is a huge difference and we should not "go out and help" without them asking. The brits asked us to help in WWII and Germany invaded the rest of Europe. When Saddam invaded Kuwait for slant drilling into Iraqui oil fields and would not cease, I still support our foreign policy to remove Saddam's troop. This time, we invaded a country because we can. Stay out of other's business and way of life. Contrary to popular belief, our beliefs are not "right" for everyone. Its a good policy the rest of the world respected.

SidViscous

Hmmmmm I wasn't aware that we had invaded Russia.

Yes we did Iraq, but different circumstances, and yes obviously the only way we could have stopped Saddam was to invade. We tried it your way for years, and it didn't work with him. But yes it usual works with others.

And as I said before, my impression is that the people of Iran would welcome us. Should we go? I mean their government certainly isn't going to ask.

Legoland951

According to our current foreign policy, we would want to invade Russia for gassing their own people etc. and their attrocities along with North Korea. After all, Russia did invade the entire Eastern Europe when it was USSR. What did we do about it? Nothing because they too had nukes. I would like to see what we do if Saddam did have a couple hundred nukes and not someone we could bully around. I think we would not have invaded them. Too bad Russia and N. Korea are not countries we can bully around without getting our asses kicked a little. Its the reason we will not invade Russian and North Korea, otherwise, for the same reasons we invaded Iraq, we can make up 100 times more reasons to invade Russia for their WMD.

SidViscous

Difference being we semi trust Russia not to go hog wild, and were more afraid of a nuclear exchange with Russia. So we back down. Fact of life, you can only bully those that can't beat you up.

Having said that. Our foriegn policy has not been to invade and accupy countries (We will get out of Iraq and let them govern themselves) that is not true of countries like Russia, Iraq, and North Korea. North Vietnam for that matter. They invade, kill of the in power governement and take over 100%

We fight against that, and I think that's a good thing.

Legoland951

It sure looks like we invaded, occupied, kill the in power government, took over 100%, and will get out when we get control and put who we want in power (and exclude the Baath party, which was the dominate party in their country) as we have in many other governments including Iran in the past not much different than Russia did with countries they invaded. I am sure the Russian people were told that these satellite nations had their own governments and governed by their own people much like our government told us. North Korea and North Vietnam wanted to unite their country the same way the union wanted to kill the confederates and unite the states. N. Korea, similar to China and Taiwan today, were separated as the result of an unfinished civil war. Vietnam did finish their civil war, just not the government we want to put in place for their people. In this case, their people voiced their opinions whether we like it or not and unfortunately, they kicked our butts with not much more than will and 10 death to every one of ours. I don't agree with communism, but its what they want for a government. Who am I to say they should live like us?

jp944

Sounds like I heard some of this before in Full Metal Jacket.

"I guess they'd rather be alive than free. Poor dumb bastards."

jp

SidViscous

Same thing that we did in **** Germany. We said, look you can do anything you want, but that bastard went to far so we had to stop him.; So you can do anything you want as long as it's not Nazisim or communisim. Same thing were doing in Iraq.

But no we are not the same. The governments of both South Vietnam and South Korea didn't want to be communist, but their northern brothers decided they were going to invade with force and we tried to help them stop it. But in both cases our endgame was never for the occupation of North Korea or North Vietnam. Was never to change their form of Governement, only to allow the southern countries to keep theirs. Is south Korea an American terroritory? South Vietnam is now ruled by a different government. A government that took over by force.

Same in Europe. We didn't go in to France, Belgium or even Germany and say, okay now we control you. We went in to kick out the aggresor and give the country back to the government in power before the invasion. Russia on the other hand, went through a variety of countries kicking out the Germans and said "Now you belong to us"

You can't see the difference between the two?

If you try to break into and steal my neighbors house, and I stop you and give the house back to my neighbor. Is that not different than if you steal my neighbors house and Joe Stalin comes in throws you out and then takes the house for himself.

Peckster

Why don't you boys take it outside.

Legoland951

The key is we did not go in until the ***** became the aggressor and took over other countries. I agree with kicking Iraq out of Kuwait but not this time like I stated earlier. It is completely different and we went in unprovoked and are the aggressors we used to kick out of other countries in the past.

South Vietnam and South Korean government are governments WE want to be in power. To other countries, having 68,000 U. S. soldiers in S. Korea in "peacetime" looks likes occupation to other countries and definitely keeps the government in power. How you figure we are not to change their form of government? They are in a state of civil war and the communists would have won and we ARE changing their government to what WE want them to be. Its like the Union and Confederacy fighting in a civil war and a foreign country like France backed the confederates to create a South United States and a North United States. Does a foreign country have the right to do that? I guess we can consider the confederate government taken over by force according to your theory and any strong foreign country has the right to come in and change the outcome of our form of government. Yes we are indeed changing their form of government even though I don't like communism and do not agree with it but I wouldn't fool myself and think we are not changing their form of government. I don't believe I ever said the U. S. went into Europe to take over countries. We leave the governments who agree with "our way" of life and simply overthrow ones who do not agree with us and install pro U. S. governments. If that rule applys to all, then it would be right for any Islamic or communist nation who do not agree with the U. S. govt and overthrow our government and kill our president to put in a government that they agree with. Does might make right? I am simply promoting the golden rule.

Last time I checked, Iraq was not trying to steal anyone's house when we invaded them. The bottom line is, I can see why much of the rest of the world is pissed off at us whether I agree with them or not but I am definitely not going to put my head in the sand.

SidViscous

Actually yes, might does make right, it's sad but true.

However to focus on north and South korea/vietnam for a moment.

Do you know why the Northern Countries are Comunistic, and the Southern democratic.

Japan had invaded these countries and killed their leaders. Near the end of the war Russia came in our side for some of the glory in the defeat of Japan. To that end we had to give them some concesions. The allies came in to free Korea and Japan, Russia demanded to have some control in those countries. It was decided to split the countries down the middle, North becoming communistic, South democratic. There were treaties to that effect. It's sad to be chopping up countries like that, but it's what we did all over the world at that time, It's why Poland was behind the curtain as well as half of Germany. Se we didn't exactly install our own government 100%, we allowed half to be an opposing type.

Anyways, there were treaties in place. That's your playground, this is ours. In both cases the invasion was not only the invasion of a soviegrn nation, but the breaking of a treaty.

Regardless, the people in the southern parts of that country did not want to be communist (for the most part), hence why they asked for help. We continue in Korea because South Korea isn't a militaristic state and cannot compete with North Korea who is a complete militaristic state. And the South Korean government, a democratically elected government, asks us to be there. Those countries that do not want us there can ask us to leave, and we do. The Philipines for example.

As to the Islamic nations coming over here and would it be right. Right Schmight, that's not how it works. It's a playground with bullies in it (Us being one of them). Was it right for Stalin to Kill the Romanovs, was it right for Hitler to kill his oponents, was it right for the greeks to take over Rome, Romans to take over Europe, Celts to take over from Romans. Was it right for the Egyptians to take over Persia, for us to take over from the Indians, and on and on and on. Name me one major country that wasn't taken from it's rightful rulers at one point in time or another.

If they could do it they would. If we didn't have the power we do they would. We do, they can't and that's life.

They don't want us to be meddling in their lives they need to stop threating us, flying airplanes into our building and killing thousands of our citizens.

SimonK

What a ******....