HP wins races and HP sells cars. :)
10-06-2012, 08:26 PM
#31
Race Car
I was going to say it's the same reason F1 cars don't use turbochargers... because, uh, turbochargers make you go slower? 
F1 cars go to such high RPMs and have limited displacement engines because they are forced to by the rules, like Jim said. If the rules were more lax, they would go much faster and drivers would be much more likely to kill themselves trying to win.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
F1 cars go to such high RPMs and have limited displacement engines because they are forced to by the rules, like Jim said. If the rules were more lax, they would go much faster and drivers would be much more likely to kill themselves trying to win.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
10-07-2012, 05:46 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mostly in my workshop located in Sweden.
Posts: 2,230
Received 463 Likes
on
248 Posts
The Radical SR8 LM is still the fastest road car on the Nürburgring as far as I know. There are race cars being much faster such as 6.11.13 minutes made by a Porsche 956 in 1983. The winning concept of the Radical is low weight (1433 lbs) and a small (2,6 L) high revving V8 (360 hp @ 10500 rpm). http://www.supercars.net/cars/3838.html
When will we see a 928 doing a really good time?
Ake
When will we see a 928 doing a really good time?
Ake
10-07-2012, 06:12 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Guys.......................in all seriousness.....ANY street car against ANY 200+ hp "race" car is not a fair race.....excellent street cars like the ZR1 are severely compromised on a road course...the reason SO many manufacturers use the ring is IT FAVORS POWER by a huge margin....you can suck almost the whole course and make it all up on the long straight...this is why the Veyron runs a 7:40.....
Thunderhill is about 1/2 power and 1/2 handling....which is why spec miati do quite well there.....I'm running 2:02's....a decent time.....it would take a serious driver to beat me in a ZR1.....since I think a well driven bone stock ZR1 is around a 2:00 car.... A friend who is a GOOD driver turned a 2:08.5 in his 2009 ZR1.....bone stock....then came in and said it was "scary".....
while I am a decent driver, there is "more" in the car...... I welcome ANY bone stock ZR1 that thinks it can beat me
Thunderhill is about 1/2 power and 1/2 handling....which is why spec miati do quite well there.....I'm running 2:02's....a decent time.....it would take a serious driver to beat me in a ZR1.....since I think a well driven bone stock ZR1 is around a 2:00 car.... A friend who is a GOOD driver turned a 2:08.5 in his 2009 ZR1.....bone stock....then came in and said it was "scary".....
while I am a decent driver, there is "more" in the car...... I welcome ANY bone stock ZR1 that thinks it can beat me
that would be a 1:52 at Thunderhill. the guy diving the ZR1 wasnt racing you or didnt know how. period.Porsche Motorsports has tried to sell this idea, for years! I proved them wrong about this, in 1995.
A couple of years ago, they finally saw the "light" and made engines that had more torque and less top end horsepower (which is a really, really great story, BTW) and made their race cars much, much faster.
Only took them 20 years. You might get it sooner!
A couple of years ago, they finally saw the "light" and made engines that had more torque and less top end horsepower (which is a really, really great story, BTW) and made their race cars much, much faster.
Only took them 20 years. You might get it sooner!
acceleration = power/(mass x velocity) Newton says acceleration is proportinoal to power! not engine torque!
as Glen says, its the "law". but rememer, its the force at the rear wheels , not the engine
The ZR1 is a better car PERIOD. On a race track, on the highway, on the moon, anywhere!
You either aren't giving your driving skills their due, or everyone that owns a ZR1 and takes it to that track is a HORRIBLE driver.
I think we should be talking driver skill over your car being better around ANY race track than a car like the ZR1. That's just absurd. I get the bone stock thing, but you've already spotted the car two seconds.
You either aren't giving your driving skills their due, or everyone that owns a ZR1 and takes it to that track is a HORRIBLE driver.
I think we should be talking driver skill over your car being better around ANY race track than a car like the ZR1. That's just absurd. I get the bone stock thing, but you've already spotted the car two seconds.
Here is another law for you :
Acceleration = power / (mass x velocity)
if you aint talking about the "F" at the tires, you dont have much to go on. since no one would be talkng "F" at the engine, the torque value means nothing wihtout RPM behind it
10-07-2012, 06:14 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
By the way, for those playing along, whats the main difference of why the vet beats the porsche and why the jet beats the car?
bonus question: why does the car beat the jet to near 70mph?
bonus question: why does the car beat the jet to near 70mph?
10-07-2012, 10:16 AM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Only F between tires and road matters. You're getting there. F at the road is T at the engine times the gear ratio. Simple. Keep it simple. No need to make it complicated.
10-07-2012, 07:48 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
you met anyone that says, "i have 3000ft-lbs of force at the rear tires? " " oh, but at 80mph , i have 1000ft-lbs of force....." of course not. they talk engine, torque, flat torque curves and get theirpanties in a mess when trying to understand that HP tells it all! just more information . its torque, plus RPM as a bonus factor! all in one. you know the HP at any speed, all other things being equal, you will know who will win the race! you want to get more detailed, integrate the HP curves and see who has more HP-seconds. sure, you can break it down to torque, get the RPM, gear rations, tire diameter, etc, but thats a lot of work. not wrong, but a lot of work and most get confused the more work they have to do. Loook at greg brown he is confused now too!
In the context of the disussion, lets talk about the jet and the car race!
10-07-2012, 08:58 PM
#38
You can't have HP without torque when you are referring to an engine. Think higher RPM and higher torque with the right gearing = greater HP at the wheels. You know this so I don't understand why you are looking for an argument.
10-07-2012, 10:40 PM
#39
The ZR-1 is a wickedly fast car with an amazing engine, huge sticky tires, and magnetoretic shocks. If its not whipping Brian's *** on the track then Brian is a superman drover and should have gotten the mclaren seat instead if Perez, or the vette drover is on some sort of Sunday drive. There are not too many options here.
10-07-2012, 11:20 PM
#40
Race Director
The ZR-1 is a wickedly fast car with an amazing engine, huge sticky tires, and magnetoretic shocks. If its not whipping Brian's *** on the track then Brian is a superman drover and should have gotten the mclaren seat instead if Perez, or the vette drover is on some sort of Sunday drive. There are not too many options here.
Yes the ZR1 has a very powerful engine.....but that really doesn't count for much on a road course.....handling-braking-setup is MUCH more important than power
"huge sticky tires"....huge, yes...sticky umm no....not even close they are STREET TIRES....which by nature suck compared to DOT-R tires.....and even more compared to true racing slicks.... maybe at best 1.25g vs over 1.5+G on race tires
Keep in mind....STREET CAR, on street tires....crappy unsupportive seats, brakes that will fade... hundreds of lbs of dead weight are the enemy of street cars on a race track.... A ZR1 is over 3300lbs
I am still a novice racer.....nowhere near a "pro"....using my best lap times in my Scion vs what Randy Probst did I am over 6% off pace...assuming Randy Probst can go 6% faster than me...he would be a 1:54 at Thunderhill in my 928....which is almost exacty what a ZR1 would turn if Randy drove it...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
10-08-2012, 03:13 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Brandon
Yes the ZR1 has a very powerful engine.....but that really doesn't count for much on a road course.....handling-braking-setup is MUCH more important than power
"huge sticky tires"....huge, yes...sticky umm no....not even close they are STREET TIRES....which by nature suck compared to DOT-R tires.....and even more compared to true racing slicks.... maybe at best 1.25g vs over 1.5+G on race tires
Keep in mind....STREET CAR, on street tires....crappy unsupportive seats, brakes that will fade... hundreds of lbs of dead weight are the enemy of street cars on a race track.... A ZR1 is over 3300lbs
I am still a novice racer.....nowhere near a "pro"....using my best lap times in my Scion vs what Randy Probst did I am over 6% off pace...assuming Randy Probst can go 6% faster than me...he would be a 1:54 at Thunderhill in my 928....which is almost exacty what a ZR1 would turn if Randy drove it...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
Yes the ZR1 has a very powerful engine.....but that really doesn't count for much on a road course.....handling-braking-setup is MUCH more important than power
"huge sticky tires"....huge, yes...sticky umm no....not even close they are STREET TIRES....which by nature suck compared to DOT-R tires.....and even more compared to true racing slicks.... maybe at best 1.25g vs over 1.5+G on race tires
Keep in mind....STREET CAR, on street tires....crappy unsupportive seats, brakes that will fade... hundreds of lbs of dead weight are the enemy of street cars on a race track.... A ZR1 is over 3300lbs
I am still a novice racer.....nowhere near a "pro"....using my best lap times in my Scion vs what Randy Probst did I am over 6% off pace...assuming Randy Probst can go 6% faster than me...he would be a 1:54 at Thunderhill in my 928....which is almost exacty what a ZR1 would turn if Randy drove it...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
I would take randy in your car and give him his *** in it! trust me, its not that complicated! your car cannot run 2:00 period! even god driving!
10-08-2012, 03:16 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Brian, as i said, a pro took the ZR1 to laguna and ran a low 1:30. even if you put street rubber on it, like we did in WCGT in 2001, that only costs about 4 seconds vs DOT race rubber of the Toyo RA1.
10-08-2012, 03:23 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
vipers can have 450ftlbs and 450rw torque while a porsche GT3 competitor could have 450rwhp and 240 rw torque. who is going to win?? same weight and handling and both cars will be identical at any part of the track. yet one has half the engine torque as the other. the close gears of the GT3, keeps the HP in its max range while the broad HP range of the viper keeps its hp there too. so the net is both cars will have the same HP at any speed at the track. off turns, down straights, etc ect. HP is just an easier comparison factor to use to determine performance.
you dont need to find out ratios, tire diameters, rear end reductions, etc etc. jsut take two curves and compare them!
10-08-2012, 10:05 AM
#45
Nordschleife Master
If you tell me the torque and gear, I can tell you the acceleration. That's not "nothing," that is everything!