Has Club Racing Gotten Too Aggressive?
08-05-2010, 12:46 PM
#121
Former Vendor
Good of you to explain that Carlos. I was a little surprised myself.
I really think that the thread should be changed to "Has club racing gotten too stupid?" There is nothing wrong with a very aggressive but high percentage move. That is racing, and without that we may as well be doing DEs. Most of the problems come from the obviously low percentage, poorly executed and just plain bone-head moves, as well as the thoughtless, lack of awareness moves from the passee. That's not aggression, that's stupidity.
I really think that the thread should be changed to "Has club racing gotten too stupid?" There is nothing wrong with a very aggressive but high percentage move. That is racing, and without that we may as well be doing DEs. Most of the problems come from the obviously low percentage, poorly executed and just plain bone-head moves, as well as the thoughtless, lack of awareness moves from the passee. That's not aggression, that's stupidity.
dont get me wrong, i drove my boxster fast to a pair of 2nd places, but i tried to remember where we're at....its PCA Club racing. meant to be assertive, aggressive, but we're supposed to be mature and smart, and when 4 or 5 of the "Danger/warning lights" start blinking on the dash like your shift light module, well, then its time to lift just a tad. as pass in turns 8,9, etc. to me woudl be aggressive, could cause a knock or knick, exposure you to a 13 penalty which wouldnt be something to be happy about...
but if you goof dive bombing someone in turn 2 or 4, you could easily put someone in a hospital or atleast cause someone a big ticket repair bill beyond your own trashed machine.
i actually thought doing 3 practice starts as the prelude to the sprint race#1 was a big mistake but luckily noone was harmed. starts are easily the most dangerous while everyone is in tight proximity to one another. doing it 3 times while poor qualifiers look to hop up a few spaces was a bit much.
i suggested that if we're going to do the 3 practice starts as part fo the start to sprint#1, then as best possible just focus on the starts and ask everyone to regrid based on qualifying thereafter, if possible. the changes would not be too material and everyone knows the 2 cars in front of them, the one to their left and 2 behind (well maybe not behind, but everyone knows who they are behind).
as my wife says....boys and their race cars
08-05-2010, 12:58 PM
#122
Drifting
2. She wasn't sleeping (She is a FIA 'A' rated starter with experiance at Montreal to name a few tracks) - the incident happened right beside her while she is looking up track, (where she has to focus). Trust me, you can't hear contact like this with 20+ cars going WFO right past you.
3. The flagger at cor 1, (downhill from starters stand) can't see anything but the roofs of the cars as they come under the start stand. And besides, his focus is towards cor 2 and his back would have been to traffic anyway.
4. The people on pitwall (drivers right) may have seen something - but the contact side of the cars is away from their view.
5. On PRO racing weekends the race control is located above the starter on drivers left up on the bank. For the P Car weekend the race control was located in the Castrol tower down near pit in and cor 10 - as per the wishes of PCA.
Side notes:
- The level/skill of the bottom 25% of the drivers in both class was terrible. Most of them would have their licences reviewed and or parked if they ran in any CASC class here.
- In speaking to a friend who was 'com' at cor 2 during the 'Porsche parts buying spree' - she said it looked like a 'big F up' on the part of one driver instead of a parts breakage as claimed. I trust her judgement.
- There were several drivers that had very slow lap times in both groups. That in itself isn't a big problem as we have had multi class race starts in region racing where we have GT1 Trans Am cars racing at the same time as GT4 Honda Civic's - we do it all the time. What we don't have that I saw during this race was people who have no idea what to do or not do when faster cars come up behind them. Hell they are not even worthy of running in a DE group let alone a Red race group. A big fail on the part of club racing people to allow this to happen.
- We're seeing modern cars such as Cup cars and RSR's (500HP+) get into the hands of weekend racers - in fact racers not used to what we experiance in either CASC or SCCA racing. What occured at cor 2 was not unexpected.
- Given the level of equipment and speed - PCA should review what it wants this series to be. They should also HIRE a former PRO series official to over see this series as it looks as if the time a volunteer can do this job is over. There are lots of out of work CART/Champ Car/Trans Am/World Challenge/etc officals walking around with their hands in their pockets.
- The incident between the two cayman's and the passing GT3 between station 5C and station 6 is not unusual given the fact that the blue flag at 5C (12 seconds into the vid) was shown to the white Cayman so the red/blue/white Cayman moved around the car given the blug flag to pass him. Did the GT3 'assume' the blue was for BOTH Cayman's so therefore HE could pass? It is impossible to give a blue flag in this situation so that EVERYONE knows WHO it was for. Short of us throwing the flag at your windsheild - sometimes blue flagging is akin to throwing a bomb in the room instead of using a .220 with a scope. Your also going three wide up a 45 foot wide track... Crap happens - he didn't see you and it didn't look personal.
08-05-2010, 02:22 PM
#125
Burning Brakes
...in Port Dover, Ontario....
http://www.cyberbiker.ca/portd.htm
http://www.pbase.com/s_barbour/friday_the_13th_2008
(Der Professor has been there on a Friday the 13th, on two wheels)
http://www.cyberbiker.ca/portd.htm
http://www.pbase.com/s_barbour/friday_the_13th_2008
(Der Professor has been there on a Friday the 13th, on two wheels)
08-05-2010, 02:43 PM
#126
In club racing, 13/13 refers to 13 months of probation, followed by 13
months of suspension. if a driver is involved in an incident, that
driver is placed on probation for 13 months.
months of suspension. if a driver is involved in an incident, that
driver is placed on probation for 13 months.
08-05-2010, 03:20 PM
#127
Drifting
I did about a total of 15-16 laps in the red run group on Friday and I got hit in the 2nd practice session. The other driver got a 13/13. IMHO, he could have ovoided that penalty if he had given me a little more respect (and room). Why clip my front end when I'm at the apex, during a practice? I just think it was useless. After that, my car broke down (my fault).
c.
c.
08-05-2010, 05:26 PM
#128
that is ugly! thats all stuff we all have to pay for ourselves. I dont like to see this. did all that come out of that first video white car losing control to the left and then spinning on the track and causing the mayhem or was it a different problem. (bob was referring to a guy losing a suspension part that caused him to spin) Or is it guys that cant keep control of their cars on the first few turns? they all look so spastic! "trying to win the race on the first turn" syndrome.
how lucky was that yellow car! wow, just blew through the carnage like days of thunder!
bummer!
EDIT: i see , same accident, different views. i think the second video guy should have been leaning toward the inside of the track (left) during that car in front of him locking up. It always seems the inside line seems to be safter. guys on the outside, and others not aware behind, always take the outside wide line to go though trouble. not a guarantee , but a safe bet. Also, it also seems that many of these accidents can be avoided if the guy that spins for whatever reason, puts both feet in!!! that locks in his trajectory and is much more predictable! Ive seen most all bad wrecks from guys that just let their cars spin and travel back and forth accross the race track, until they stop rolling.
"trying to win the race on the first turn" syndrome. how lucky was that yellow car! wow, just blew through the carnage like days of thunder!
bummer!
EDIT: i see , same accident, different views. i think the second video guy should have been leaning toward the inside of the track (left) during that car in front of him locking up. It always seems the inside line seems to be safter. guys on the outside, and others not aware behind, always take the outside wide line to go though trouble. not a guarantee , but a safe bet. Also, it also seems that many of these accidents can be avoided if the guy that spins for whatever reason, puts both feet in!!! that locks in his trajectory and is much more predictable! Ive seen most all bad wrecks from guys that just let their cars spin and travel back and forth accross the race track, until they stop rolling.
The yellow car was driven by my friend Robert and I couldn't believe what he did. He was so lucky... good for him as he did very well for a rookie the next day in the Enduro: 7th overall with lap times consistently in the 1.26
08-05-2010, 05:29 PM
#129
Rennlist Member
It all started from the white car spin. Some cars had enough time to brake (as I did) but some others couldn't see what was going on in front and were still on the gas... Was it caused by a suspension break ? I can't say, but looking at the first video you can see the driver breaking hard exactly where you don't want to break on this track.
The yellow car was driven by my friend Robert and I couldn't believe what he did. He was so lucky... good for him as he did very well for a rookie the next day in the Enduro: 7th overall with lap times consistently in the 1.26
The yellow car was driven by my friend Robert and I couldn't believe what he did. He was so lucky... good for him as he did very well for a rookie the next day in the Enduro: 7th overall with lap times consistently in the 1.26
Looking at the video from your car, did the green car tap the rear of the car that spun into the wall?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
08-05-2010, 05:40 PM
#130
If you are talking of the green car in front of me, I don't know but I don't think so. If you look at the video in 1080 resolution and full screen mode, you will see exactly what I saw...
08-05-2010, 05:51 PM
#131
Rennlist Member
- The level/skill of the bottom 25% of the drivers in both class was terrible. Most of them would have their licences reviewed and or parked if they ran in any CASC class here.
- In speaking to a friend who was 'com' at cor 2 during the 'Porsche parts buying spree' - she said it looked like a 'big F up' on the part of one driver instead of a parts breakage as claimed. I trust her judgement.
- There were several drivers that had very slow lap times in both groups. That in itself isn't a big problem as we have had multi class race starts in region racing where we have GT1 Trans Am cars racing at the same time as GT4 Honda Civic's - we do it all the time. What we don't have that I saw during this race was people who have no idea what to do or not do when faster cars come up behind them. Hell they are not even worthy of running in a DE group let alone a Red race group. A big fail on the part of club racing people to allow this to happen.
- We're seeing modern cars such as Cup cars and RSR's (500HP+) get into the hands of weekend racers - in fact racers not used to what we experiance in either CASC or SCCA racing. What occured at cor 2 was not unexpected.
- Given the level of equipment and speed - PCA should review what it wants this series to be. They should also HIRE a former PRO series official to over see this series as it looks as if the time a volunteer can do this job is over. There are lots of out of work CART/Champ Car/Trans Am/World Challenge/etc officals walking around with their hands in their pockets.
- In speaking to a friend who was 'com' at cor 2 during the 'Porsche parts buying spree' - she said it looked like a 'big F up' on the part of one driver instead of a parts breakage as claimed. I trust her judgement.
- There were several drivers that had very slow lap times in both groups. That in itself isn't a big problem as we have had multi class race starts in region racing where we have GT1 Trans Am cars racing at the same time as GT4 Honda Civic's - we do it all the time. What we don't have that I saw during this race was people who have no idea what to do or not do when faster cars come up behind them. Hell they are not even worthy of running in a DE group let alone a Red race group. A big fail on the part of club racing people to allow this to happen.
- We're seeing modern cars such as Cup cars and RSR's (500HP+) get into the hands of weekend racers - in fact racers not used to what we experiance in either CASC or SCCA racing. What occured at cor 2 was not unexpected.
- Given the level of equipment and speed - PCA should review what it wants this series to be. They should also HIRE a former PRO series official to over see this series as it looks as if the time a volunteer can do this job is over. There are lots of out of work CART/Champ Car/Trans Am/World Challenge/etc officals walking around with their hands in their pockets.
08-05-2010, 06:03 PM
#132
Rennlist Member
The green car behind me was also very lucky to only touch my right rear wheel and nothig else. The two other cars that ended in the wall with the white car that started everything just tried to avoid him (the green car) going right on the outside line of turn 2 (going left).
If you are talking of the green car in front of me, I don't know but I don't think so. If you look at the video in 1080 resolution and full screen mode, you will see exactly what I saw...
If you are talking of the green car in front of me, I don't know but I don't think so. If you look at the video in 1080 resolution and full screen mode, you will see exactly what I saw...
Did you cut a tire when the car behind you tapped you? Is that why you came in? Glad you escaped worse...
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
08-05-2010, 06:24 PM
#133
Sorry, yes I meant the green car in front of you (looked like a 996 Cup?). He caught up to the "crash" car, and moved right to be directly behind him. I wondered if he tapped the "crash" car.
Did you cut a tire when the car behind you tapped you? Is that why you came in? Glad you escaped worse...
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Did you cut a tire when the car behind you tapped you? Is that why you came in? Glad you escaped worse...
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
I just had a slightly bended outside wheel. I went back out on the track to finish the race but couldn't do good lap times because the toe was quite off on that wheel... but mostly because I was driving while thinking if all this worth the risks involved. I always knew that **** can happen in racing but I was doing it under the assumption that nobody (should I say most of the field...) knew what they were doing and wanted to bring their car back in one piece.
08-05-2010, 07:55 PM
#135
As a rookie, I'm probably not the best person to make a judgment on this, but I had a pretty good view of how it all started. Look at the rear brake lights before he lost it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-DizJYlJN8
And the view from another car involved that was unfortunately not as lucky as many of us were on that start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNuVZzbaHOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-DizJYlJN8
And the view from another car involved that was unfortunately not as lucky as many of us were on that start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNuVZzbaHOA
Those would have been my exact words.
RSR buddy as well?