Has Club Racing Gotten Too Aggressive?
08-05-2010, 08:05 PM
#136
08-05-2010, 08:36 PM
#137
Rennlist Member
08-05-2010, 09:12 PM
#139
Former Vendor
i hope noone takes this the wrong way...but i think rookie or provisional drivers should not be permitted in the GTC fields. A thru H-ish is plenty fast.
I have a cup car. its taken me 1/2 year to get comfy in it. but i woul dnever want to jump out there in my first race in a 450hp monster when a 250hp boxster or RSAMerica could provide as much fun in a safer more controlled environment.
I saw someone, i think, in a 2010 Cup with an X on the back. i dont question the guys ability to turn fast laps, but coping with a crowd in tight spaces is an entirely different ball game. rent something, borrow something, or for 1/20th the cost of the cup, get a spec boxster or 944 racer and get your feet wet more safely.
anyone know the owner of the RSR? that dude had a rough weekend.
I have a cup car. its taken me 1/2 year to get comfy in it. but i woul dnever want to jump out there in my first race in a 450hp monster when a 250hp boxster or RSAMerica could provide as much fun in a safer more controlled environment.
I saw someone, i think, in a 2010 Cup with an X on the back. i dont question the guys ability to turn fast laps, but coping with a crowd in tight spaces is an entirely different ball game. rent something, borrow something, or for 1/20th the cost of the cup, get a spec boxster or 944 racer and get your feet wet more safely.
anyone know the owner of the RSR? that dude had a rough weekend.
1. The 'flagman' is a girl - so we'll call her a flagperson? 
2. She wasn't sleeping (She is a FIA 'A' rated starter with experiance at Montreal to name a few tracks) - the incident happened right beside her while she is looking up track, (where she has to focus). Trust me, you can't hear contact like this with 20+ cars going WFO right past you.
3. The flagger at cor 1, (downhill from starters stand) can't see anything but the roofs of the cars as they come under the start stand. And besides, his focus is towards cor 2 and his back would have been to traffic anyway.
4. The people on pitwall (drivers right) may have seen something - but the contact side of the cars is away from their view.
5. On PRO racing weekends the race control is located above the starter on drivers left up on the bank. For the P Car weekend the race control was located in the Castrol tower down near pit in and cor 10 - as per the wishes of PCA.
Side notes:
- The level/skill of the bottom 25% of the drivers in both class was terrible. Most of them would have their licences reviewed and or parked if they ran in any CASC class here.
- In speaking to a friend who was 'com' at cor 2 during the 'Porsche parts buying spree' - she said it looked like a 'big F up' on the part of one driver instead of a parts breakage as claimed. I trust her judgement.
- There were several drivers that had very slow lap times in both groups. That in itself isn't a big problem as we have had multi class race starts in region racing where we have GT1 Trans Am cars racing at the same time as GT4 Honda Civic's - we do it all the time. What we don't have that I saw during this race was people who have no idea what to do or not do when faster cars come up behind them. Hell they are not even worthy of running in a DE group let alone a Red race group. A big fail on the part of club racing people to allow this to happen.
- We're seeing modern cars such as Cup cars and RSR's (500HP+) get into the hands of weekend racers - in fact racers not used to what we experiance in either CASC or SCCA racing. What occured at cor 2 was not unexpected.
- Given the level of equipment and speed - PCA should review what it wants this series to be. They should also HIRE a former PRO series official to over see this series as it looks as if the time a volunteer can do this job is over. There are lots of out of work CART/Champ Car/Trans Am/World Challenge/etc officals walking around with their hands in their pockets.
- The incident between the two cayman's and the passing GT3 between station 5C and station 6 is not unusual given the fact that the blue flag at 5C (12 seconds into the vid) was shown to the white Cayman so the red/blue/white Cayman moved around the car given the blug flag to pass him. Did the GT3 'assume' the blue was for BOTH Cayman's so therefore HE could pass? It is impossible to give a blue flag in this situation so that EVERYONE knows WHO it was for. Short of us throwing the flag at your windsheild - sometimes blue flagging is akin to throwing a bomb in the room instead of using a .220 with a scope. Your also going three wide up a 45 foot wide track... Crap happens - he didn't see you and it didn't look personal.
2. She wasn't sleeping (She is a FIA 'A' rated starter with experiance at Montreal to name a few tracks) - the incident happened right beside her while she is looking up track, (where she has to focus). Trust me, you can't hear contact like this with 20+ cars going WFO right past you.
3. The flagger at cor 1, (downhill from starters stand) can't see anything but the roofs of the cars as they come under the start stand. And besides, his focus is towards cor 2 and his back would have been to traffic anyway.
4. The people on pitwall (drivers right) may have seen something - but the contact side of the cars is away from their view.
5. On PRO racing weekends the race control is located above the starter on drivers left up on the bank. For the P Car weekend the race control was located in the Castrol tower down near pit in and cor 10 - as per the wishes of PCA.
Side notes:
- The level/skill of the bottom 25% of the drivers in both class was terrible. Most of them would have their licences reviewed and or parked if they ran in any CASC class here.
- In speaking to a friend who was 'com' at cor 2 during the 'Porsche parts buying spree' - she said it looked like a 'big F up' on the part of one driver instead of a parts breakage as claimed. I trust her judgement.
- There were several drivers that had very slow lap times in both groups. That in itself isn't a big problem as we have had multi class race starts in region racing where we have GT1 Trans Am cars racing at the same time as GT4 Honda Civic's - we do it all the time. What we don't have that I saw during this race was people who have no idea what to do or not do when faster cars come up behind them. Hell they are not even worthy of running in a DE group let alone a Red race group. A big fail on the part of club racing people to allow this to happen.
- We're seeing modern cars such as Cup cars and RSR's (500HP+) get into the hands of weekend racers - in fact racers not used to what we experiance in either CASC or SCCA racing. What occured at cor 2 was not unexpected.
- Given the level of equipment and speed - PCA should review what it wants this series to be. They should also HIRE a former PRO series official to over see this series as it looks as if the time a volunteer can do this job is over. There are lots of out of work CART/Champ Car/Trans Am/World Challenge/etc officals walking around with their hands in their pockets.
- The incident between the two cayman's and the passing GT3 between station 5C and station 6 is not unusual given the fact that the blue flag at 5C (12 seconds into the vid) was shown to the white Cayman so the red/blue/white Cayman moved around the car given the blug flag to pass him. Did the GT3 'assume' the blue was for BOTH Cayman's so therefore HE could pass? It is impossible to give a blue flag in this situation so that EVERYONE knows WHO it was for. Short of us throwing the flag at your windsheild - sometimes blue flagging is akin to throwing a bomb in the room instead of using a .220 with a scope. Your also going three wide up a 45 foot wide track... Crap happens - he didn't see you and it didn't look personal.
08-05-2010, 09:22 PM
#140
Rennlist Member
Do you think driving a Cup car for 6 months makes anyone a veteran?
08-05-2010, 09:24 PM
#141
Former Vendor
no of course not. nor does 3,4,5 years of driving experience keep someone from being an idiot. like you said, if a driver is reckless or an idiot, he's going to be that way in a lesser powered car. but, he has a better shot of not causing himself or more importantly others harm. do you think someone ought to be permitted into a thick field of GTC cars at Mosport in a 2010 Cup car with a rookie X on the back.??to me, jsut seems wrong.
08-05-2010, 09:32 PM
#142
Rennlist Member
no of course not. nor does 3,4,5 years of driving experience keep someone from being an idiot. like you said, if a driver is reckless or an idiot, he's going to be that way in a lesser powered car. but, he has a better shot of not causing himself or more importantly others harm. do you think someone ought to be permitted into a thick field of GTC cars at Mosport in a 2010 Cup car with a rookie X on the back.??to me, jsut seems wrong.
That is why we are all required to sign waivers as we enter the race track........
08-05-2010, 10:22 PM
#144
BTW I would be curious to know how many rookie drivers left the Mosport track with their car on a flat bed or with a 13/13... probably none.
The guy in the RSR is a cool guy driving a cool car. The worst person to be a victim of this carnage. Just there to have fun with friends. Don't know him really but it is sad that he was involved in this chaos. It could have been me or my friends. Just hope that the one causing all this have some regrets for these guys (the RSR driver and the driver in the second video I posted). Don't get me wrong, anyone can make a mistake...
At least the start of the Enduro the next day was much more safe. Everyone was in a single lane before turn 2.
Disclaimer: I am a rookie in the GTC class
Last edited by GT3 Techno; 08-05-2010 at 11:06 PM.
08-05-2010, 11:47 PM
#145
Rennlist Member
You are right Gary. Even with prior race experience, if you are a rookie with PCA, you get the "X" for three races. Must race clean for 3 races before you can take it off.
I think most of us in club racing are there to have a good time. We race close, but respect and look out for each other. Of course there will always be some bad apples, but I think that is the exception and not the norm. I have raced with both PCA and NASA and found that its pretty much the same in both series.
I think most of us in club racing are there to have a good time. We race close, but respect and look out for each other. Of course there will always be some bad apples, but I think that is the exception and not the norm. I have raced with both PCA and NASA and found that its pretty much the same in both series.
08-06-2010, 12:32 AM
#146
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Hmmmm, lots to ponder here... First, I've raced with Carlos and find his explanation pretty credible. As the driver overtaking him, and given that you are in a much faster car, I would say your attempt to pass there while he's passing another car was ill-advised. 100 more feet, he's around him and back on his line and you're free to make the pass on one of the longer straights we ever run at.... Like you said though, lesson learned and it wasn't expensive....
As far as the meley in Turn 2, who knows what exactly caused the first guy to spin but sometimes spins just happen. Problem is, once one thing happens something has to follow...cause and effect... Unfortunate, but I'm not sure what the solution to that particular incident is.
It seems a lot of the carnage was caused simply by enough cars spinning/losing control/moving so that it jammed the track with no clear lanes around available. Some people get lucky (guy in the yellow car) who might not have had the right to be (people are smoking tires and spinning and he goes barreling in...) and some people, like you in this instance or the other guy in the other video are very unlucky. I still don't know that this is an example of "what's wrong with Club Racing." I do think it's an example of the risks of racing vs. doing DE's.
Not to sound condescending but it is RACING. The risks are higher, margins for error are less and consequences of incidents are more dangerous/expensive. If you can't stomach the risk of wrecking your car or don't want to be in a position where something bad can happen, you've picked the wrong hobby.
I've said it a couple times in this thread already and a few others have had a similar suggestion; make the license harder to get initially. The only really objective way of making it better is to require more race experience before someone can line up on the grid. DE time and practice days are certainly beneficial for car control, etc, but I'd support requiring 4 actual races (2 is all that is currently required I believe) before you can apply for a PCA license. IMO nothing is better than actual race experience.
As far as the meley in Turn 2, who knows what exactly caused the first guy to spin but sometimes spins just happen. Problem is, once one thing happens something has to follow...cause and effect... Unfortunate, but I'm not sure what the solution to that particular incident is.
It seems a lot of the carnage was caused simply by enough cars spinning/losing control/moving so that it jammed the track with no clear lanes around available. Some people get lucky (guy in the yellow car) who might not have had the right to be (people are smoking tires and spinning and he goes barreling in...) and some people, like you in this instance or the other guy in the other video are very unlucky. I still don't know that this is an example of "what's wrong with Club Racing." I do think it's an example of the risks of racing vs. doing DE's.
Not to sound condescending but it is RACING. The risks are higher, margins for error are less and consequences of incidents are more dangerous/expensive. If you can't stomach the risk of wrecking your car or don't want to be in a position where something bad can happen, you've picked the wrong hobby.
I've said it a couple times in this thread already and a few others have had a similar suggestion; make the license harder to get initially. The only really objective way of making it better is to require more race experience before someone can line up on the grid. DE time and practice days are certainly beneficial for car control, etc, but I'd support requiring 4 actual races (2 is all that is currently required I believe) before you can apply for a PCA license. IMO nothing is better than actual race experience.
08-06-2010, 12:39 AM
#147
Hmmmm, lots to ponder here... First, I've raced with Carlos and find his explanation pretty credible. As the driver overtaking him, and given that you are in a much faster car, I would say your attempt to pass there while he's passing another car was ill-advised. 100 more feet, he's around him and back on his line and you're free to make the pass on one of the longer straights we ever run at.... Like you said though, lesson learned and it wasn't expensive....
As far as the meley in Turn 2, who knows what exactly caused the first guy to spin but sometimes spins just happen. Problem is, once one thing happens something has to follow...cause and effect... Unfortunate, but I'm not sure what the solution to that particular incident is.
It seems a lot of the carnage was caused simply by enough cars spinning/losing control/moving so that it jammed the track with no clear lanes around available. Some people get lucky (guy in the yellow car) who might not have had the right to be (people are smoking tires and spinning and he goes barreling in...) and some people, like you in this instance or the other guy in the other video are very unlucky. I still don't know that this is an example of "what's wrong with Club Racing." I do think it's an example of the risks of racing vs. doing DE's.
Not to sound condescending but it is RACING. The risks are higher, margins for error are less and consequences of incidents are more dangerous/expensive. If you can't stomach the risk of wrecking your car or don't want to be in a position where something bad can happen, you've picked the wrong hobby.
I've said it a couple times in this thread already and a few others have had a similar suggestion; make the license harder to get initially. The only really objective way of making it better is to require more race experience before someone can line up on the grid. DE time and practice days are certainly beneficial for car control, etc, but I'd support requiring 4 actual races (2 is all that is currently required I believe) before you can apply for a PCA license. IMO nothing is better than actual race experience.
As far as the meley in Turn 2, who knows what exactly caused the first guy to spin but sometimes spins just happen. Problem is, once one thing happens something has to follow...cause and effect... Unfortunate, but I'm not sure what the solution to that particular incident is.
It seems a lot of the carnage was caused simply by enough cars spinning/losing control/moving so that it jammed the track with no clear lanes around available. Some people get lucky (guy in the yellow car) who might not have had the right to be (people are smoking tires and spinning and he goes barreling in...) and some people, like you in this instance or the other guy in the other video are very unlucky. I still don't know that this is an example of "what's wrong with Club Racing." I do think it's an example of the risks of racing vs. doing DE's.
Not to sound condescending but it is RACING. The risks are higher, margins for error are less and consequences of incidents are more dangerous/expensive. If you can't stomach the risk of wrecking your car or don't want to be in a position where something bad can happen, you've picked the wrong hobby.
I've said it a couple times in this thread already and a few others have had a similar suggestion; make the license harder to get initially. The only really objective way of making it better is to require more race experience before someone can line up on the grid. DE time and practice days are certainly beneficial for car control, etc, but I'd support requiring 4 actual races (2 is all that is currently required I believe) before you can apply for a PCA license. IMO nothing is better than actual race experience.
"LICENSING PROCEDURES
1. To obtain a PCA Club Racing License, a member must first make application to the PCA Club Racing National Committee (PCA Club Racing Committee). Application forms may be obtained from the PCA National Club Racing Program Coordinator (National Club Racing/CRPC) or from our web site www.PCA.org
2. There is an annual licensing fee of $75.00, payable to the PCA Club Racing, due with the Licensing Application, and subsequently due annually. A fully completed medical certification, which must be no older than 60 days at the time of submittal and updated a minimum of every two years or annually, if determined by the examining Medical Doctor, is also required. After the completion of all requirements, a License will be granted and it must be presented at registration at all Club Races along with a photo identification. In the event of an injury or significant change in medical condition, the PCA Club Racing Committee may require an updated medical certification. and then Club Racing and then Forms.
3. The application will provide for two routes to obtaining a PCA Club Racing License:
A. Via an existing competition license with experience from a recognized road racing sanctioning organization, including SCCA, PSR, USRRC, ALMS, POC, NASA Racing and any vintage group which is a member of the Vintage Motorsport Council. Application must include documentation of six (6) completed races (e.g., race results) from the previous twenty four (24) months and a copy of the current racing license.
B. Through attendance and successful completion of a PCA
Club Racing School (see Number 5 below).
4. Licenses will be maintained by the PCA Club Racing Committee. All 13/13 incidents and penalties will be tracked by the PCA Club Racing Committee, and a data base will be maintained on those drivers on probation or suspension.
5. For members without an existing competition license, and hence applying to attend the PCA Club Racing School (Club Racing School), the application will require that:
A. The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve (12) or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver’s ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months. (Equivalency will be evaluated in terms of number of sessions with in-car instruction.) Dates, locations, sanctioning body, Chief Instructor, Run
Group data, and instruction status (e.g., signed off by instructor after the first two sessions) data shall be provided.
B. The applicant must
provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body’s Chief Instructor (or equivalent). The certification will: describe the applicant’s ability with regard to basic high speed driving skills; describe the applicant’s ability to drive without an instructor in Run Groups higher than beginner; and, include information on the applicant’s courtesy and general awareness at all times on the track. The purpose of this certification is to gain information about the applicant’s track experience and not to receive a recommendation of the applicant as a possible Club Racer.
With these requirements fulfilled, the applicant will then be permitted to attend the Club Racing School.
Upon successful completion of a Club Racing School, a member will be granted a PCA Club Racing Rookie License. This will be in effect for four (4) Club Racing events (including the event of the school). Each rookie will be required to display a rookie tape “X” on the rear deck lid or bumper, and their performance will be monitored closely by the Committee. After successful completion of four (4) incident free events, the Rookie status will be deleted. It is required that these races be completed in at least two years in order to be granted a Full License.
6. For members with an existing competition license with experience, a PCA Club Racing Provisional License may be granted. This will be in effect for their first four PCA Club Race events. Completion of these four incident free events is required within a two year period. Performance will be carefully monitored at these events, and if satisfactory, the Provisional status will be deleted. In addition, each new Provisional license holder will be required to attend the Club Racing Orientation Meeting at his or her first PCA Club Race. A driver who does not complete four races in two years may be required to attend, at their next event, the Orientation Meeting and the Licensing School.
7. A driver will maintain a Full License by competing successfully in four races within two years, and being current with dues and medical histories; races in other approved venues can be used to fulfill this requirement by submitting result sheets to the Club Racing Program Coordinator. If a driver fails to fulfill this minimum requirement, he/she may be required to attend the Orientation Meeting and Licensing School at the next event entered in order to maintain Full License status. A driver may stay active in the PCA Club Racing program by paying current dues which will retain him/her on the mailing list for the Newsletter."
08-06-2010, 12:54 AM
#148
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3. The application will provide for two routes to obtaining a PCA Club Racing License:A. Via an existing competition license with experience from a recognized road racing sanctioning organization, including SCCA, PSR, USRRC, ALMS, POC, NASA Racing and any vintage group which is a member of the Vintage Motorsport Council. Application must include documentation of six (6) completed races (e.g., race results) from the previous twenty four (24) months and a copy of the current racing license.
B. Through attendance and successful completion of a PCA
Club Racing School (see Number 5 below).
5. For members without an existing competition license, and hence applying to attend the PCA Club Racing School (Club Racing School), the application will require that:
A. The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve (12) or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver’s ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months.
B. Through attendance and successful completion of a PCA
Club Racing School (see Number 5 below).
5. For members without an existing competition license, and hence applying to attend the PCA Club Racing School (Club Racing School), the application will require that:
A. The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve (12) or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver’s ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months.
Last edited by PedroNole; 08-06-2010 at 01:09 AM.
08-06-2010, 01:43 AM
#149
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"General Regulations"
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the National Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident involving more than his or her car will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be required to return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall be presumed to be at fault.
Posting PCA regulations are good for everybody. Me included. And I do follow them.
c.
08-06-2010, 08:24 AM
#150
I found this too:
"General Regulations"
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the National Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident involving more than his or her car will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be required to return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall be presumed to be at fault.
Posting PCA regulations are good for everybody. Me included. And I do follow them.
c.
"General Regulations"
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the National Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident involving more than his or her car will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be required to return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall be presumed to be at fault.
Posting PCA regulations are good for everybody. Me included. And I do follow them.
c.
Your usual way to make new friends I guess...